The PLP Leadership Contest So Far

Well, the third, and presumably last, contender for the Leadership of the PLP has formally launched his campaign today. Dale Butler now joins Paula Cox and Terry Lister in this important election process.

While I know there is some concerns by some members that the very public nature of the campaign so far could be detrimental to the Party, I personally think that it has an equal, if not greater chance, of benefitting the Party. The concerns are that the rival candidates campaigns could tear the Party apart in factional rows, descend into mudslinging or generally lead to a refutation of the past PLP Governments. I believe the Party, its members and Leadership contenders, are mature enough to be able to disagree with each other and campaign in a positive manner. If the previous PLP administrations come under criticism, then the Party should be able to judge whether or not this criticism is warranted or not. Quite frankly I don’t think there are all that many members who believe the last twelve years has realised all the potential that could (and arguably should) have been acheived. Mistakes have been made. The key question is whether the Party is mature enough to recognise these mistakes and determine a way to collectively address both these, and additional issues.

I feel that the benefits of this very public contest far outweigh any possible negative consequences. The ability to demonstrate the Party’s maturity, and to debate various policies for the future direction of both the Party and the country, has the potential to even bring new members into the Party. More importantly, it gives the Party a chance to collectively take stock of the past eleven years and prepare to move forward in the present, as well as planning strategy for the next decade.

Having said that…

So far I haven’t been all that impressed with the Leadership campaigns. It’s true, the only people that matter, in that they are the ones casting votes, are Branch Delegates (and Alternates), as well as the MPs who also cast a vote. As such the candidates are no doubt conducting a lot of their campaigns within the internal structures of the Party, attending Branch meetings and putting forward their case. That’s fine, and that should be the case. However, I feel that the external campaigns, that is, the public face of it, should indicate the quality of the internal campaign, kind of like the proverbial tip of the ice berg.

Based on the external campaigns only, I would have to say I’ve been quite disappointed with those of Paula Cox and Dale Butler so far.

Ms. Cox’s campaign seems to be little more than advocating continuity, more of the same of the past eleven years. While she is right to defend the good work the Party has done, it reinforces her new, and self-inflicted, moniker of a ‘cog’, simply continuity and nothing new. For many in the Party she was viewed as the ‘anti-Brown’, in the sense of being viewed as more a traditional Old Labour candidate to Dr. Brown’s New Labour Leadership. I still think she is more of an Old Labour candidate, and I mean that in a positive sense, but I’m not really seeing her arguing her case. It is almost as if she is campaigning more on the expectations of the past four years where she was the unquestioned heir to the leadership.

She certainly is quite popular and the clear frontrunner at the start of the campaign, and she will exercise (in my estimation) a more soft-power, strong but consensus based leadership. To me though, that isn’t enough. I want to know more about what she will do in addition to continuing the good work of the past decade, and I want to see a much more active and policy based campaign from her. For someone who was expected to contest the leadership for years, it was disappointing to see her stumble out of the starting gate, clearly caught out by Mr. Lister’s pre-emptive strike, and her launch, though well-attended, was quite dismal compared to what I had expected.

Mr. Butler was the first candidate, back in spring, to announce his intentions (Ms. Cox’s candidancy was just assumed), and yet he has been the last to formally launch. And his launch itself, while highlighting a good cause, didn’t inspire me with confidence with him as Party Leader. I would have expected him to have had a meticulously prepared and detailed launch. I didn’t see that. Particularly worrying to me was his discussion of appointing a Senator to serve as ‘the voice of the Church’, which, quite frankly, puts me off considering him as a viable Leader. I can see how it could strike a chord with some of the traditional social conservative members of the Party, I personally have issues with the already strong Church-State relationship in Bermuda, and I also wonder if this is merely opportunism from him, a sort of peace branch to the Church in light of his championing issues viewed as controversial within the Church.

I don’t fully agree with all of Mr. Lister’s positions so far, but I do need to read them in greater detail. What I can say is that so far he is the only candidate that has out forward an actual platform, and, in my opinion, has approached the Leadership election in a positive and proper manner. I look forward to seeing his campaign develop, and I continue to hope that the other two candidates will respond in kind and we’ll see a proper campaign develop, which will come to a climax in October. At the moment though, Mr. Lister strikes me as the only credible candidate so far, although I sincerely hope that Ms. Cox and Mr. Butler also, rise to the occassion and develop their policies.

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200 thoughts on “The PLP Leadership Contest So Far

  1. If you see Paula Cox as more “old labour”, does that mean not unlike Alex Scott?

    I was wondering (if the above is correct) why the general view seems to be that Paula has the nod so to speak for the Leadership, if she is different to Ewart Brown as indeed Alex was?

  2. In the end I don’t believe the ‘campaigns’ will matter. There’ll be lots of chat about change, and how the PLP have learned, and that the past few years have been detrimental and we need to reverse and fix the problems created…then the delegates will choose Ms. Cox.

    I’d love to be shown to be incorrect, but in the end the PLP delegates have shown themselves to be most in favour of not rocking the boat. Of continuing the status quo. And whilst we may get grandiose speeches about the wrongs of our debt and the hazards of our policies and what not – it’ll all be talk and they’ll just vote the ‘cog’, because it’s easy.

    The only good news (from a neutrals perspective) is that if they choose someone new and dynamic, it would give them a better shot in the next election. At least with Paula as the leader the PLP’s image and standing won’t change, so the alternatives (if you can even call them that) should have a better shot.

    Because Bermuda won’t survive another 4 years if the rate of descent is like the past 4.

  3. It’s come down to “old labour” vs “new labour”? Seriously?

    I thought you understood that politics should be about issues. Terry Lister has a grasp on the issues, and has released a solid platform. No-one else even comes close. But because he’s pro-business he doesn’t quite meet with your approval?

    Don’t be ridiculous. The only way out of the mess we are currently in is a return to a more capitalism-friendly government. Because the money will not come from anywhere else. If the delegates do not pick Terry, we’ll be worse off than we are now in very short order.

  4. Jon, I’ve got to agree that Terry is the only one to have released any sort of platform. Paula seems to be promising a continuation of more of the same and, while she’s less of a polarizing figure that Ewart, it remains to be seen if she’s got both the strength of character and the raw smarts to reign in the out of control monster that the government has become before it’s too late (for that matter it may already be too late). And I don’t think Dale is a serious contender.

    Meanwhile I’d like to hear how the various candidates would address EFB’s legacy as summarized by Vexed in his latest post:

    http://www.vexedbermoothes.com/the-facts/

    And I don’t mean warm and fuzzy platitudes (“We’ll make educational reform a priority” or “We’ll work to solve the homeless problem”) but rather real concrete steps that have some chance of working.

    Of course when all is said and done, it doesn’t really matter what sort of public platform the candidates provide. All that matters is what happens behind closed doors at the delegates conference. Because if you believe that the choice of PLP party leader (and hence Premier) matters to Bermuda’s future, the fate of the Island will be decided by a small group of PLP insiders.

  5. Whatever your smoking or drinking Blankman you should give it up.

    Your last sentence sums it up.

    “insiders” are part of the party structure. They elect.

    What happens after that is no reflection on the appointment.

    It’s what the ‘appointee’ Premier does after that. Have you not heard of the Constitution.

    If the next Premier rules as you want, we will be back to Hitler. Thats why we have this process and Cabinet and Senate and Civil Service.

    They screw it up, don’t blame the Premier but then again you as one of the most outspoken people on forums and blogs will say…… the buck stops there.

  6. @ RenMan – I’m not sure if I’ve understood your comment properly. I said that Mr. Lister is the only credible candidate so far because he has actually brought policies to the table. I would hardly regard Old Labour as socialist, just more balanced capitalism.

    I am not endorsing any candidates at this moment in time, but I do hope the contest becomes more policy based (I know Mr. Butler has released some since I wrote this piece).

  7. Jonathan – I don’t understand when u say min cox stumbled out of the gate? Her launch was well put together and well attended. What exactly did you expect?

  8. plan over public persona

    substance over bs

    country over party

    who has the best plan for the nation……..n whos gonna delliver…. should be the “winner”

    not air n hype so far…..if the plp dont pick the person with the best plan that delivers what the people want …then the plp is corrupt.

    political corruption within the government party should be treason, n treason should be punishable by death

  9. Hi Ken – my thinking is that she was caught out by Mr. Lister kicking off the campaign, and since then she really hasn’t done much to recapture the initiative, at least not in the public eye. She may be doing more within the Party, and I fully admit my iceberg analogy may be flawed. But one does get the feeling that she wasn’t expecting to campaign until September/October and that Mr. Lister’s actions forced her hand. The actual event was well organised, yes, but she hasn’t really given me a good sense of her policy platform or why I should really vote for her – both of which Mr. Lister has.

    A week is a long time in politics though, and there are several weeks before the Delegates Convention, so things can change, tortoise and the hare like.

  10. …she hasn’t really given me a good sense of … why I should really vote for her …

    Jonny, hate to break it to you but, unless you’re one of the delegates, you don’t get to vote for her. Or for anyone else for that matter.

  11. Jonathan,

    The difference between Ms. Cox and Mr. Lister is that she intentionally launched her campaign after the summer recess, which I (and many others) feel showed respect to the current leader.

    You should know that nobody could force Ms. Cox’s hand, least of all Terry Lister.

    As far as campaigning, I think all candidates have been campainging for quite a while. Terry Lister and Dale Butler started their campaign when they tried to unseat the Premier after the Quighurs incident. In fact, Terry Lister started campaigning for the leadership of the PLP when he tried to unseat L. Frederick Wade after he appointed him to the Senate.

  12. History has recorded … that our current Premier:

    1. Has overseen an increase in public sector debt from $160m to $900m in the span of four years because the Government is incapable of controlling spending, preparing a balanced budget or accurately estimating revenues.

    2. Violated the constitution;

    3. Wilfully obfuscates “tourism” arrival figures (tourist air arrivals, for example, were down 24 of the last 27 months for the period ending 31 Mar 2010).

    4. Witnessed an unprecedented rise in violent/gun crime to the point that Bermuda has now rocketed to 6th place (ahead of Mexico FFS) in murders per capita in THE WORLD.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

    5. Made a complete mess of health care for seniors to the point of creating an unsustainable, unfair and untenable system in the form of Future Care.

    … and that’s just five quick ones off the top of my head. There are dozens (if not hundreds) more that “history has recorded”

  13. History certainly DIDN’T record that Mr. Lister and Dale “…started their campaign when they tried to unseat the Premier after the Quighurs incident…”

    That is your opinion, not a fact.

    Mr. Lister has also not been campaigning for leader, at least not in any way that would be “recorded” by “history” until he actually announced his launch.

    Regardless of any of that…

    What’s wrong with him wanting to be Leader of the PLP?

    Why shouldn’t he aspire to the highest hights: Leadership of the country?

    Why shouldn’t they have attempted to “…tried to unseat the Premier after the Quighurs incident…”, even though I don’t remember that happening…?
    He lied to the people of Bermuda and the House (when he said they had been vetted by the police), he did this without approval from ANYONE, making promises that aren’t his to make.
    They disagreed with this action and stood up for their principles by quitting.

    Wasn’t it you that places “the courage of your convictions” in high regard?

    Sorry, back to the subject…

    History HAS not and CANNOT record anything of the sort.

  14. Ms. Furbert.

    According to you, an incident that happened more than twenty years ago, when the PLP was in dire need of being reformed, should disqualify Terry Lister from being considered? Really? I suppose the five members that left are similarly tarnished?

    And to couple that with the justified attempt at removing Dr Brown after his treasonous Uighur exercise as another? Calling out someone for breaking the law is wrong? Ms Cox should be OK because she just lets things pass, then.

    The more egregious sin is allowing such things to pass in the first place. Ms Cox has allowed our economy to collapse into crushing debt by just letting things slide. If we continue with that mantra, we’ll be even worse off than we are now. Why is that alright in your estimation?

    I guess the issues or platform don’t matter to you. Thanks for confirming all the reasons to actually support Mr Lister in his bid.

  15. I guess it all depends who wrote the history. Some have written that slavery in Bermuda was benign.

  16. No. It doesn’t. But an AMAZING attempt at deflection.

    You said “History has recorded…”

    My response was that your opinion about these two gentlemen is NOT history, nor is it recorded history. It is your opinion and that is all.

    I then went on to ask a few questions pertaining to your post.

    You, instead of engaging in conversation, deflected… AND brought race into it.

    Why bring race into it? Oh, wait.. you gave yourself the deniability, didn’t you. You were vague enough that you can backtrack and say “I didn’t bring up race! Why do you have to attack the messenger”.

    So, I have to ask.

    ARE you going to engage in a conversation, or just post your opinion as fact.

    Because if it’s the latter, then it can ONLY be assumed that it is part of a smear campaign against not only members of the PLP, but also elected MPs.

  17. Actually, that’s incorrect.

    You said “history has recorded…”

    This is not true.

    Your opinion on Mr. Lister or Mr. Butler is not recorded history. It’s just your opinion.

    Comments on who wrote the history, especially when talking about relatively recent events is nothing but a deflection and has nothing to do with what you said before, nor anything I said.

    And bringing race into it is just nasty.

  18. “And bringing race into it is just nasty.”

    … and sadly, hardly surprising as race is inevitably used as a retort of last resort whenever the opportunity for an informed rebuttal is impossible and/or the retorter is incapable of making a reasoned argument.

  19. I don’t know why anyone would want to bring up race in Bermuda. We all get along so well. Lynne Winfield is really out of touch. She was way off base in her column today in the Bermuda Sun.

    Uncle Elvis,
    It’s not only my opinion. It’s the opinion of a lot of people, and they matter in this instance.

  20. Ms. Furbert, you are deflecting again.

    Race has nothing to do with what you said or what I said.
    YOU brought it up in your non-response.

    And no one was talking about Lynne Whitfield’s column.

    We were talking about your smear campaign against members of your own party, elected members of parliament.

    I don’t understand why you’re backtracking.

    Don’t YOU have the courage of your convictions.

    As to whether it’s just your opinion or that of others? It’s moot.

    The point is, that you said “history has recorded…”

    It hasn’t. Your opinion or the opinion of a lot of people is NOT recorded history.

    I AM, however, interested in who these people are and why only “they matter in this instance.”
    Are you talking about the delegates?
    Do you know who they are?
    Do you know how they are going to vote?
    If so, how?

    If not, who?

  21. Butler would make a good president as the most popular candidate. Cox leader of the house of legislature as a party loyalist. Lister has trust problems as a mega real estate agent.
    But in the real world it is all about debt to create jobs because crime will hit the educated class in the near future. Bigotry cant stop crime. Empty ya pockets educated punks!

  22. 32n64w – yet again you guys cannot have a discussion without bringing up Dr. Brown. This discussion is about the next leader, not the current. Yet again your obsession/fascination with Dr Brown takes over.

  23. ken,

    That might be because whoever takes over the role of Premier will be faced with the task of cleaning up the mess that Ewart created.

  24. Here is a small but meaningful clarification. Mr Lister didnt quit, as he put it –

    Asked if he had quit or been sacked, former Energy Minister Mr. Lister said: “I stood on my feet in Parliament and asked for the Premier to resign. Having done that why would I resign? At no time did I offer my resignation.”

    Thats not very coragueous or convicted if you ask me.

  25. Uncle Elvis,

    Please don’t insult my intelligence. You would have loved it if I went along with you and your friends and “smeared” the current Premier. The fact of the matter is that Terry Lister started his bid for leadership of the PLP many years ago.

    No, I don’t know who the delegates are but I’m willing to bet that 85% of them will vote for Paula Cox. I didn’t know who the delegates were prior to the last leadership election but my prediction on the way the votes would be distributed was spot on. The difference between you and I is that I talk to PLP members on a regular basis, you don’t.

    As far as his last “resignation” from the Cabinet (when he was Minister of Energy), it is my understanding that he just never went back to any Cabinet meetings. I don’t recall hearing the Premier say that he fired him, in fact I don’t think that they even had a conversation about it. However, when he left the Cabinet while he was Education Minister, he did notify Premier Scott (and the public) that he was stepping aside for personal reasons.

  26. When did I insult your intelligence?
    The only insult around here was when you decided to bring in race with your “Some say slavery was good” comment, then the little wordgame you played afterwards.

    And now you’re making baseless accusations against me, saying things that you have ABSOLUTELY no way of knowing… you’re the one who claims to have no idea who I am, remember? How do you know I don’t talk to PLP members on a regular basis?… and, as usual, backtracking on what you said.

    And yet WE are the ones “smearing”, not you.

    Got it.

  27. While the internet media waste time on who will replace Dr. Brown his legacy has destroyed the island.
    The ignorant grudgefulness of his educated class of whites in international business has meant eductaed blacks have intergrated out of black sportsclubs, businesses and neighborhoods leaving behind poverty, drugs and gun crime.
    The failure of Dr. brown can be seen in the foolish comments of Peniston a former UBP arrogant lawyer just like the arrogant middle class blacks on talk shows,
    ” Blacks need to get an education to stay away from crime.”
    These fools need to go to hell with this trash.
    This is why people smoke weed to burn that corrupt capitalist education system like pembroke dump pond.
    i would rather smoke crack than follow these greedy corrupt dogs shoot heroin in my veins before being like these scornful vomit pigs in the educated class.
    “The educated class need to realize they are blessed and need to create jobs for those who are less fortunate. ”
    The day the white man leaves this island in numbers the working class will eat these educated political bigots for fun like Columbia murder rape and kidnapping.

  28. Anyone else notice that the detractors of Terry Lister have yet to put forward a positive reason to support Ms Cox? Or, for that matter, a valid reason to not support Terry Lister? Or Dale Butler, even.

    Wonder why that is… and it’s pretty interesting that the vote of the last delegates conference can be referenced with such accuracy, especially when the delegates were all replaced at the last minute before the conference. That wouldn’t have anything to do with a self-fulfilling prophecy now, would it?

  29. So Renaissance Man, you’ve never heard of people making “guesstimates”? And you don’t need a scientfic poll for that. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I talking to many members of the PLP on a daily basis, some say they’re supporting Terry Lister but the majority say they’re supporting Paula Cox. None of have said that they’ll be voting for Dale Butler.

    I have a whole list of reasons why I’m supporting Paula Cox and a whole list of reasons why I’m not supporting Terry Lister. I’m trying to reserve those comments for the Delegates Conference (if I’m selected) or at branch meetings when the candidates are present.

    You have no idea about the PLP constitution although it’s on the website. Delegates are not replaced “at the last minute before the conference”.

    You’re a consipiracy theorist like some other people I know. The process is very democratic and has been in place since the Party’s inception in 1963.

  30. You mean the constitution that has been ignored since the ousting of Jennifer Smith? And the same one that was willfully ignored at the last ADC?

    Convenient to mention it now, but it may well be ignored again. Especially if there are reasons to do that.

    So kind of you to save us poor masses from the “reasons” for supporting Ms Cox and not supporting Mr Lister. Wouldn’t want us to fret over that.

  31. RenMan, forgive my ignorance, but how was the PLP Constitution ignored at the last ADC? And while the actions that led to Ms. Smith losing the Leadership were, in my opinion, unconstitutional, the special Delegates Convention that was held after that, and led to Mr. Scott becoming Leader, was constitutional.

    Whether or not the Constitution was followed properly or not in the past is no reason not to follow the Constitution now.

  32. I’m referencing the last minute delegate changes. There was manipulation of those attending to influence the result. That is unconstitutional.

    Agreed that the constitution should be followed always, but my hopes aren’t that high. Past is prologue.

  33. To be honest RenMan, I have no idea what delegates changes you are referring too; I wasn’t on island for the last convention, but I don’t remember hearing anything about such a thing. There are Alternates in place should the actual Delegate be unable to vote, and if it was found that there were irregularities in the selection or number of delegates in attendance, then that could be rectified at the convention.

    If you could, please elaborate on the incident you are referring.

  34. I too would like to know what happened at the last delegates conference. Were there? I can tell you that I attended the first night, left early on the second night because I was unwell and did not attend on the last night. But this is the first that I’m hearing of the Constitution being ignored. As I said, you’re a conspiracy theorist and you weren’t even in attendance. Second-hand information is like like second-hand clothes – used by someone else.

    There were no “controversial” matters discussed last year anyway.

  35. Perhaps RenMan is referring to the 2006 convention, where Dr. Brown was elected Leader? I have heard other people refer to irregularities during that convention, but as an Alternate at that convention I personally did not see or hear of anything irregular.

  36. Okay then. The irregularities I’d heard before about the 2006 one were something along the lines of Dr. Brown using money channeled through Andre Curtis to ‘buy’ votes of delegates, something which I’ve seen no evidence of, and I did not see anything of the sort at the convention. So, this is the first time I’ve heard someone say that delegates were changed at the last minute.

    My branch, for example, met a couple of months before the convention and elected the delegates and alternates we were allowed, and that was that; no changes after. Nor where we approached with monies, or a campaign from either candidate. The only thing I can recall that comes close to what you are referring too was that there was a question as to whether Senators where allowed to vote, but it was agreed, and I concur with the interpretation, that they should not be allowed to vote (as they were appointed by the incumbent Leader their votes would have been suspect).

    Personally, from my watching of the night and speaking with delegates in the build-up, Dr. Brown’s election was anything but guaranteed. Mr. Scott had a very good chance to remain Leader, but in my opinion he really gave a poor speech and that seemed to have tipped the balance in Dr. Brown’s favour.

    If you can expand on your allegations though, that would be helpful.

  37. Of course he can’t expand on his allegations. By the way, the PLP has an Annual Delegates Conference, not a convention.

    As far as Dr. Brown “buying” votes, I have never heard that before today. The delegates vote by secret ballot so there is no way that anyone can confirm which delegate voted for them.

    It’s people like Renaissance Man that need to be watched. Spewing untruths under the cloak of anonymity. It’s disgusting!!

  38. It’s people like Dr. Brown that need to be watched. Spewing untruths under the cloak of Parliamentary Privilege. It’s disgusting!!

  39. Conference/Convention – You are correct, I mix the two up all the time. Not really that much of a difference between the two semantically though really.

    I’m not so sure RenMan is necessarily spinning conspiracy theories, rather there is probably some sort of a Chinese Whispers thing going on where something innocent is twisted beyond all recognition to something sinister – and something that would better reflect the prevailing impression of Dr. Brown in the psyche of some people. Whether RenMan is actively spinning or just repeating what someone said, I don’t know. I’m just curious to try and unravel where this story has come from.

  40. It may not make a difference to you Jonathan, but to me it does, especially when anti-plp people use the term.

    Of course RenMan is spinning a conspiracy theory. That’s all he and his friends do – spin theories about the PLP. He’s not a stupid man but I bet you won’t get the truth from him.

  41. Anti-PLP? Where is the evidence of this?

    That is quite an extrapolation…

    Oh, wait… Dr. Brown IS the PLP, isn’t he?

    Anyone that opposes him is anti PLP, right? Even long-time PLP members…

    I forgot about that.

  42. and “…that need to be watched…”?

    That’s some scary language right there, especially coming from someone on a Human Rights Commission.

    I thought you weren’t allowed to discriminate based on political affiliation…

    and here we have a Human Rights Commissioner suggesting that “anti-plp people” need to be “watched”….

    that’s terrifying.

  43. Please Uncle Elvis. You and RenMan are cut from the same cloth. Conspiracy theorists!! You and your kind are really going to have a problem come October aren’t you?

  44. I suppose my support of a PLP parliamentarian means I’m not PLP because he’s apparently not “the right” parliamentarian. Gotcha.

    I was referencing the last minute replacement of delegates.Whether they were “bought” is not the issue, but they were replaced under dubious circumstances, unbeknownst to those who selected them.

    No conspiracy theory here. other than why people are so pro for Ms Cox when her record is poor, at best.

  45. Paula Cog = kiss the Bermuda we knew & loved goodbye,

    Terry Lister = maybe something new,

    Dale Butler = not leadership material.

  46. Wow… annnnd the instant attack, based on nothing but ignorance.

    None of the points addressed, nothing said, just a venomous attack.

    Ladies and gentlemen, the Human Rights Commission. Big round of applause.

  47. Human rights for people that look like you are dead. Take what they give you anything else is unearned privilege.

  48. Oh Uncle Elvis.. the same over and over again. Detract and take it away from you.

    If people agree with you and your clique they are fine. For someone that goes around calling people “Bigots” why did you not ask for that to be addressed.

  49. Tell us more about the last minute replacement of delegates.” This is the first I’m hearing. It’s not enough that you are saying that it is a fact. You seem to be only one who knows about.

    I’ll discuss the records of the 3 candidates where I should – at the Annual Delegates Conference (if I’m selected as a delegate).

  50. Wait… so now we’re NOT allowed to say things as fact like you do?

    Ms. Furbert, you really need to make up your mind.

    One second, it’s ok to say whatever you want as fact, the next, it’s not…

    Or is it that it’s not fact because you haven’t heard about it…

    oh wait… it’s “Ms. Furbert hasn’t heard about it, therefore no-one else has heard about it…”

    Unbelieveable…

  51. Open question to all, but especially RenMan:

    Can you please expand on your claim that delegates were replaced at the last moment in the 2006 PLP Annual Delegates Conference?

    I was present at the conference and remember events quite well; I’ve also gone through the RG archives to see if there is anything remotely similar to the allegations laid by RenMan, but there is nothing from that period.

  52. Of course Dr. Brown is spinning a conspiracy theory. That’s all he and his friends do – spin theories about Bermuda tourism.

    Dr. Brown’s not a stupid man but I bet you won’t get the truth from him.

  53. Jonathan,

    I doubt if the delegates would have allowed anything to happen at that or any other conference if it was unconstitutional. If you can recall, that coference was presided over by Mr. Cleveland Crichlow and I’m certain he would not have allowed anything untoward to go on.

    But, why are we arguing with a group of people whose only interest in the PLP is to denigrate them.

  54. Again with the baseless attacks…

    Many of us have expressed a LOT of support, both publicly and in private, for Mr. Lister, thinking him the best bet for Bermuda… but, because we disagree with Ms. Furbert, or are sick of being lied to, misled, deceived and mismanaged by Dr. Brown, our “only interest in the PLP is to denigrate them”.

    This is completely incorrect.

  55. But Uncle Elvis your not going to vote for Lister. In any election your not going to vote PLP.

    So what is your point.

  56. Uncle Elvis,

    Your support for Mr. Lister or any of the other candidates really does not matter as you don’t have a vote. You may believe that he is the best for Bermuda, but not everyone agrees with you. The delegates will decide whom they think will be best for the Party and Bermuda.

    I would love to see some proof from you and others of your ilk, how you have been lied to, misled and deceived by Dr. Brown. I agree that you all are sick.

  57. By the way, at least Dr. Brown does not hide behind a hood of anonymity.

    And of course few people are surprised that you would support Mr. Lister in private, only because he made that brilliant speech against Dr. Brown when he kicked off his leadership campaign.

  58. Oh there is no sarcasm button. I just don’t know why you all waste so much energy on this stuff Bermuda is a racist society after all. As I sure anyone can see by looking at the threads of this and any other political blog with Bermuda politics.

    Winfield is just worrying about saving face as her family had a role in the slave trade. She is a bit over broad when it comes to the Bermuda context as seen by her use of American situations then relating to Bermuda.

  59. Ms. Furbert, do you INTENTIONALLY miss the point, or do you just not see it?

    “Your support for Mr. Lister or any of the other candidates really does not matter as you don’t have a vote.
    You may believe that he is the best for Bermuda, but not everyone agrees with you. The delegates will decide whom they think will be best for the Party and Bermuda.”

    You said, and I quote, “…why are we arguing with a group of people whose only interest in the PLP is to denigrate them.” I was pointing out that this is incorrect and that many of us DO have an interest in the PLP other than “to denigrate them.”
    Instead of addressing that, you moved the goalposts and started a whole different conversation.

    “I would love to see some proof from you and others of your ilk, how you have been lied to, misled and deceived by Dr. Brown.”

    He said the Uighurs had been vetted by the police. They hadn’t. That was a lie.
    “We had to deceive you”

    Shall I go on? There is your proof. Cold, hard facts. Not opinion, fact. He lied to the people of Bermuda, the House and to his own Party.

    “I agree that you all are sick.”

    Tsk tsk… you aren’t allowed to discriminate or denigrate people because of their political views.
    If only there was someone here from the Human Rights Commission that could have informed you of this… oh, wait.

    “By the way, at least Dr. Brown does not hide behind a hood of anonymity.”

    Neither do I. I’ve never hidden my identity. I’ve told you on several occasions who I am and where I work.

    But REALLY nice imagery with the “hood” reference.
    It’s really interesting how you always feel the need to do that when faced with people that have rational arguments against yours.

    “And of course few people are surprised that you would support Mr. Lister in private, only because he made that brilliant speech against Dr. Brown when he kicked off his leadership campaign.”

    A) I said “both publicly and in private”… I guess the first bit didn’t fit into your agenda.
    B) I don’t recall it being so much anti-Dr. Brown as much as it was pro-Bermuda… ALL of Bermuda, not just “It’s our turn now”…
    C) Mr. Lister’s words and actions AFTER the speech have ALSO shown me, and others, that he’s the best choice of the three.

    Perhaps you could show us how the speech was “against Dr. Brown?

    Oh, wait… that would mean backing up your statements. You don’t do that, do you?

  60. Yes, Uncle Elvis. I purposely miss the point. I don’t want to intentionally miss any other points, so I’ll throw in my towel for now. I am anxious to hear more from Renman though.

  61. Guilden has just vouched for RenMan’s honesty on another site. You missed by a mile again Ms Furbert; you are targeting the wrong people.

  62. However, Guilden has not affirmed RenMan’s allegations, only stated that he knows RenMan in the capacity of a good friend.

    The allegations remain unproven, and no further information has been provided to lead them any credence whatsoever. Until more proof comes forth (and I think the burden of proof is on the accusers here) people will believe it if it conforms to their own biases, or ignore it as little more than empty hearsay, which is how I see it.

  63. So Guilden has just vouced for RenMan’s honesty. What does that mean, I’m dishonest? I think the only questions asked of RenMan is if he had any proof that the delegates were switched at the last minute and whether or not he was at the delegates conference. I know for a fact that Guilden wasn’t there. Those are serious allegations made, not just against Dr. Brown, but against the whole PLP.

    “RenMan is a very good friend of mine and LaVerne needs to know that she is now barking up the entirely wrong tree”, wrote Guilden. I wonder what that is supposed to mean. I thought I was of friend of his as well. Is he saying that because I don’t agree with something that his friend writes that I can’t be a friend of his as well. Does he agree with everything that Renman says.

    I’m not targeting anyone. The man made an accusation and both Jonathan and I asked him to back it up.

  64. And by the way, what does all of this have to do with my sons?

    And Ren Man, show me where I ever said I was against equal rights for gays. What I have said consistently is that I would have a problem renting one of my apartments to an openly gay couple. Do you know anyone in your circle of friends and family who would have the same problem? Be honest now.

  65. Interesting how the thread has, as seems usual, taken a turn away from the topic. The topic of course is somewhat irrelevant because, as several have pointed out, “we” don’t have a vote on the person who has the most influence on Bermuda. What seems to be emerging though is that on Nov 1 there will be a nonEwart (as all 3 contendwrs have pointed out) led Government. As Dr Brown has gone to great pains to indoctirnate his believers that he is the PLP, then on Nov 1 the PLP is no more, or did he lie and deceive for the last 4 years?

  66. Bryce…the PLP was there and here before you. Now go have a beer with ren and stimpy…………………….

  67. Robert Bryce,

    If Dr. Brown has the “power” to indoctrinate that many people, maybe you should be asking him to stay on. In fact, maybe you can persuade him to cross the floor before he steps down, join the UBP, and indoctrinate enough Bermudians to join the UBP, call for a General Election, get rid of Kim Swan, and then we’ll all be happy.

    Stop talking trash!!

  68. And Ren Man, show me where I ever said I was against equal rights for gays. What I have said consistently is that I would have a problem renting one of my apartments to an openly gay couple.

    So what you’re saying is that you’re not against equal rights for gays unless you’re the one that has to grant them. Fascinating.

    Do you know anyone in your circle of friends and family who would have the same problem? Be honest now.

    To be completely honest. No.

  69. Hmmm …. Delegates, switching, last minute …

    Why does a Jefferson Airplane song keep running through my head (with a few switched words)?

    Go ask Andre …

  70. What Blankman said.

    I don’t think the individual in question would like to be subjected to the witch hunts that have happened before. That is all.

  71. Ms Furbert,
    You have just proven your devotion to Dr Brown, and I can understand why, but Bermuda cannot afford him any more as clearly annunciated by the 3 prospective candicates for leadership of the PLP. Why would I want him to cross and join the UBP – they are a non issue.

  72. Renman,

    You made the accusation, you need to back it up. I dont’ know anything about a Jefferson Airplane song. Obviously you don’t have the courage of your convictions. But that is par for the course of people of you ilk who post anonymously with your conspirarcy theories. I’ll just dismiss you as I have dismissed most of the posters on this site and BIAW. You call can talk “big” behind under your viels of secrecy, but that’s where it stops.

    Robert Bryce, I have no more devotion to Dr. Brown than you have to Bermud is another world. Why don’t you start reading critically? You’re consumed with Dr. Brown, not me.

  73. Ms Furbert. Please state your fact that I have devotion to “Bermud is another world”. The fact is you can’t. What I can point to is the fact the all 3 contenders have distanced themselves from the present leadership – fact. I am not consumed by Dr Brown, in fact I look forward to seeing him kneeling in sublimation before Her Majesty as he accepts, cynically and against the PLP mantra, his Knighthood. Of course maybe you know as a fact that he will denounce such an honour. We will see.
    Your constant reference to anyone who mentions Dr Brown as being consumed by him merely proves your own devotion. Not one of the 3 contenders, and that is the thread here, have even acknowledged the past 4 years, and Paula Cox wants to go back to 1998 and start again. Unfortunately the legacy is there in mega millions of debt. Accordinmg to you they are also consumed by Dr Brown. The weakness of the present PLP, again as acknowledged by all 3 contenders, is that Bermuda is divided and wounded. Apparently it is only you who don’t see this. Now if you wish to respond , rebut the platform of the 3 contenders as they have seen the problem and wish to try and correct it. If all you can do is attack me, as you attack all others including Jonathan, then you truly are a sad person.

  74. “Yes, Uncle Elvis. I purposely miss the point. I don’t want to intentionally miss any other points, so I’ll throw in my towel for now. ”

    That’s what I thought… Thanks for verifying…

    And by “throw in the towel”, do you mean “I cannot back up anything that I say and, now that you have given me the proof that I asked for, have nothing else to say, because you are, in fact, right, Uncle Elvis, and Dr. Brown DID, in fact, lie to the people of Bermuda, the House and his own Party. Thank you for providing the proof I asked for”?

    “So Guilden has just vouced for RenMan’s honesty. What does that mean, I’m dishonest?”

    Well, no. Guilden vouching for RenMan doesn’t mean that you’re dishonest.
    You being dishonest means you’re dishonest.

    “I wonder what that is supposed to mean. I thought I was of friend of his as well. Is he saying that because I don’t agree with something that his friend writes that I can’t be a friend of his as well. Does he agree with everything that Renman says.”

    Um.. what it means is that Guilden thinks that you’re barking up the wrong tree.
    I don’t think that sentence has anything to do with your friendship with Guilden and to extrapolate that you “can’t be a friend of his as well” or that, because of that sentence, he “agree{s} with everything that Renman says”, is disingenuous and manipulative to say the least. It’s also an evasion of the salient point of the highest order, which is something you are amazingly good at.

    “I’m not targeting anyone. The man made an accusation and both Jonathan and I asked him to back it up.”

    And if and when he does… will you “throw in the towel” for that, too?
    You asked me to back up my statement and I did… and you ignored it. Will that happen for this, too?

    “Obviously you don’t have the courage of your convictions”

    Interesting that you’d use this phrase in this thread, after not having the courage of your own convictions…

    “And by the way, what does all of this have to do with my sons?”

    Now, I admit I may have missed this, but I don’t think anyone brought up your sons…
    BUT, as long as YOU have…
    I have to wonder if you, who seems to be so against people hiding behind pen names, have taken your son, Vance, to task for his shenanigans using pseudonyms.
    This seems to be a real problem for you.
    Is it across the board and you are against “talk{ing} “big” behind under your viels of secrecy” in all cases, or is is just when people that oppose you do it. If they do it for the cause of promoting the PLP, is it ok with you?

    “And Ren Man, show me where I ever said I was against equal rights for gays.”

    Now, I’m not Renman, but.. um…”I would have a problem renting one of my apartments to an openly gay couple.” would be where you say you’re against equal rights for gays.

    “Do you know anyone in your circle of friends and family who would have the same problem? Be honest now.”

    This is a moot question. None of my “circle of friends and family who would have the same problem” (of which there are NONE), are on the Human Rights Commission. You are.

    “You made the accusation, you need to back it up.”

    Why? Why does he need to? You never have.

    “I’ll just dismiss you as I have dismissed most of the posters on this site and BIAW.”

    Wellll… no… you usually “dismiss” people when they show you to be wrong…

  75. “By the way, at least Dr. Brown does not hide behind a hood of anonymity.”

    No. He prefers to hide behind bodyguards, untruths, misdirection, spin, Parliamentary privilege, 10% off the top and the Great Defender.

    Given your distaste for pseudonyms you are presumably against a certain PLP (bud) MP and will not support his bid for the deputy premier position?

    “And Ren Man, show me where I ever said I was against equal rights for gays.”

    “I would have a problem renting one of my apartments to an openly gay couple.”

    Wow. Can someone please call the HRC to report one of their very own commissioners for confirmation of premeditated discrimination.

  76. Dr. Brown is no different from all the three candidates trying to replace him arrogant, miseducated and corrupt.
    Lister owns too much real estate to be trusted to build affordable housing.
    Butler has two sons in Universites he is just in it for the money.
    Cox refuses tostep down while campaigning for the leadership thereby can offer contracts and benefits to supporters politcally and financally. too bad the white media dont have the journalistic talent of the red party.

  77. “too bad the white media” are putting this up here under the guise of the “red party”.

    Joseph Gobles would have a field day with this spin………………

  78. party politics n de westminister system have failed bermuda…unless bermuda wants the social backlash to transform into revolution, its time 2 get out of these systems that have failed 2 deliver 4 all bermudians

    the negative stats n the condition of the people speaks 4 itself

  79. BP, just to be clear, you’ve spoken about getting rid of the Westminister system on several occasions and, while I agree it’s a flawed system, I’m not sure what the alternatives are.

    I’d love to get rid of Party politics, which just doesn’t work here, as the last few decades have shown, but…

    what else is there? What else can we do?
    What other system is there?

  80. In Bermuda, one can legally discriminate based on sexual orientation giving people like LaVerne the option to decline housing to certain human beings and deny their right to live free from institutionalized hate.

  81. Simple question at, primarily Ms. Furbert:

    Is it the job of the delegates to elect the best leader of the PLP, or the best leader of Bermuda?

    I’m honestly curious.

  82. LIF,

    I believe the delegates will choose the person whom they believe will best lead the PLP and Bermuda.

  83. @ Ms. Furbert – Ha, clearly practising the politics with that answer. You know full well what I mean.

    Personally, I think that Ms. Cox is the right choice for the party, but Mr. Lister is the right choice for Bermuda.

    I also find it hard to reconcile that all 3 candidates have come out and said that Bermuda must become more united, and that we must stop being so hateful towards each other – and at the same time all 3 stood by and watched Dr. Brown deliberately ostracise and make certain segments of the community uncomfortable.

    I wonder if we will look back upon Dr. Brown as the defining figure in the PLP rule – but for showing all future leaders how not to successfully run a country. (can’t knock his political acumen though, head and shoulders above anyone Bermuda has ever seen at targeting and successfully exploiting the weaknesses of a voting majority)

  84. Having read all these comments and your original comments to get us where we are now, I must say that your last paragraph sums it up quite well.

    Some frustrated and wanna bees have turned this into the ‘LaVerne and Surely’ show.

    Spin is spin and there seems to be many that are holding the string that spins the top.

    The next Premier will not solve the problems as soon as some hope. Just look at Barack Obama. He’s not a dictator. He has people that work for him, inform him, keep him up to date.

    This in my view is what is the most lacking thing world wide.

    I wish the newly elected Premier all the best.

    Hit the ground running, shake a few cages and do their best to keep us afloat and teach our children well.

  85. LIF,

    You’re entitled to your opinion. I have already gone on record stating that I’m supporting Ms. Cox. We’ll have to wait until October to see how the majority of the delegates feel. We already know that the majority of MPs support Ms. Cox.

    I have no intention of discussing Dr. Brown. You should be aware that not only is Dr. Brown my relative, he is also a dear and trusted friend.

  86. AH!!!!! Now I got it.

    Thats what BBC stands for…………

    Gotta run….of to get a cocktail…….rumswizlier

  87. The republican system is better than the west minister system. It is corrupt for the executive to pass laws to fill their own pockets with mcdonalds 1995 Premeir passes laws in the house.
    The president and his cabinet should be seperate from the house and senate.
    The backward corrupt caribbean has been destroyed by godfather west minister politics. That is why the people are so poor and violent.

  88. Letariatpro,

    I have several reasons why I support Ms. Cox.

    1. She’s a team player.
    2. She is respectful of the Party machinery
    3. She respects all Party members
    4. She puts the Party before her own personal ambition
    5. She doesn’t run to the press under the cloak of anonymity.
    6. She is extremely intelligent
    7. She is articulate
    8. She is well-educated
    9. She is trustworthy
    10. She has integrity
    11. She believes in family values
    12. She doesn’t “smile in your face while all the while she’s trying to take your place”.
    13. She works closely with her branch
    14. She returns telephone calls and e-mails
    15. She has grown up in the party and appreciates the core values of the party
    16. She has been responsible for Bermuda being on the white list
    17. She is able to communicate effectively with world leaders

    Should I go on?

  89. At last a direct acknowledgement that in Ms Furbert’s opinion, Paula Cox is the antithesis of Dr Brown.
    One small amendment to the above list – # 4 should say she will put Bermuda first before Party. That would certainly be refreshing after the last 4 years.

  90. Robert Bryce,

    Quite the opposite. I think that Paula Cox and Dr. Brown share many of the same traits, they just display it in different ways. Remember, Dr. Brown, like me, is a child of the 60’s, Paula Cox, came several years later.

    And, Paula Cox, like those of us who really believe in the Party, know that the PLP was formed to rescue Bermuda. That is why we are all members of the PLP and not members of the UBP (or the BDA).

  91. I’ve got to agree with Robert Bryce. You’ve just said that Paula has many (most?) of the characteristics that Ewart does not.

    But what I find most interesting is you never once make any reference to where Bermuda fits in the whole picture. It’s all about honouring “the Party” above all else and “what’s good for the Party”. Not one word about what’s good for Bermuda. [As a point of clarification, while you can argue that she’s responsible for Bermuda being on the white list the fact is that she’s also responsible for Bermuda not being on the white list from Day One so I regard that as a neutral.]

    Sad that you avoid that question.

  92. “And Ren Man, show me where I ever said I was against equal rights for gays.”

    “I would have a problem renting one of my apartments to an openly gay couple.”

    This bears repeating. You’re clearly not against equal rights for gays as long as you personally are allowed to discriminate.

    Would you be as accepting of that statement if the word “gay” was replaced by “black”? Or would you claim that the person making the statement was a bigot and should be prosecuted?

  93. An interesting response. Let’s take it point by point:
    1 Dr Brown goes it alone – example Uighurs with Paula saying she is politically neutered
    2 He was part of the cabal, decried by Lois Brown Evens, to overthrow Premier Jennifer Smith
    3 see 1 and 2
    4. Quite the opposite – he puts self, and the “first lady” whatever that term means first
    5 He refuses to answer the press – either it’s a Plantation question or he is unavailalble
    6 the jury is out
    7 Neither agree nor disagree
    8 see 7
    9 You can’t be serious
    10 see 9
    11 no comment
    12 not sure what you mean
    13 does this help Bermuda?
    14, 15, 16 and 17 this is what is expected from any Premier
    How about a few extras
    18 She has no control over the finances – just a cog in the wheel
    19 she is an expert in overseeing increasing debt

    Despite the above she sure looks like the best of the 3 contenders

  94. Blankman,

    I think that you and Robert Bryce (and others) should go back and read the first platform that the PLP produced.

    Ewart Brown is not the PLP, Paula Cox is not the PLP, and certainly neither Terry Lister nor Dale Butler are the PLP.

    I would also suggest that you (and Robert Bryce) read “The History of the Bermuda Industrial Union” by Ira Philip so that you can get a better understanding of the history of Bermuda and from whence we came.

    I don’t think you are understanding yet that what is “good for the Party” is definitely good for Bermuda. The PLP wishes no harm on Bermuda, whether it is led by Ewart Brown, Paula Cox or Terry Lister.

    By the way, read Terry Lister’s parting speech as a Minister under Dr. Brown. You will see the heaped praise on Dr. Brown for what he has (had) done for Bermuda. If you like, I can cut and paste it for you.

    No matter what you and those who think like you say on these blogs, Bermuda is alive and doing well, and for that we should be grateful.

  95. “Bermuda is alive and doing well” – odd that this is exactly the opposite of the paltform of the 3 contenders, but I guess you know best.

    Small correction, and fact. Dr Brown made it very clear that he was the PLP, and any criticism against him was criticism against the PLP. Maybe you don’t recall that but it was reported and not contradicted at the time.

    Lucky for those who can afford to buy tickets for the Farewell Party – now it is clear who the PLP really care for and pander to. Now back to the leadership “contest”, except apparently the winner has already been decided with 2 months to go. Just like the UBP.

  96. I wasn’t going to wade in on this little argument until I read this:

    “I don’t think you are understanding yet that what is “good for the Party” is definitely good for Bermuda. ”

    Wow… As much as it’s always been apparent that you held that view having it stated so openly comes really comes as a surprise. In no other functioning democracy would views like that be acceptable. That really is the most disgusting perversion of Westminster style Democracy that you could have come up with.

    Parties exist to represent those with like ideals, allow them to work together for the advancement of those ideals. They DO NOT exist to become the state. Which is exactly what you just said in so many words. You seem unable to separate party and state in your mind which is worrying beyond belief.

    Never should the good of the party come before the good of the country. As much as you like to throw around great little one liners about how what’s good for the party is good for the state I think we all know that’s complete bullshit. For a specific example it’s good for the state when people from inside the PLP release information that it was trying to keep secret to the press since information is a basic necessity in a democracy. On the other hand it can be very bad for the party if it’s something that shouldn’t have gotten out.

    As much as you may think the PLP has the ideas to take Bermuda forward (as is your Human Right as I’m sure you know) that does not equate to whats being good for the party as whats being good for the country.

  97. Sounds like Ms Cox will make a great leader for the PLP, Bermuda not so much.

    I have to disagree with you, Ms Furbert on the current state of affairs on the island. The debt is far above where is should be for an island our size. This alone is cause for concern, and must be noted that Ms Cox has been the one responsible for this debt. While it does not erase all of her other ‘qualities’, it would certainly give one pause when thinking she should be leader. In any normal business she would have most likely been fired.

    Then there is the rise in gun crime. This is evidence in itself that Bermuda is not ‘doing well’.

    There is also the significant drop in tourism revenue. While this may be an indicator of what is happening in the rest of the world, it certainly gives pause to how we should be spending or not spending public monies. I should also point out that the islands down south are having a blockbuster year, which would pour some water on any world recession excuses.

    So while you do list some admirable traits, I am not so sure the person responsible for digging us into over a billion dollars in debt should be taking the helm.

    I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

  98. I guess in a sense we’re all just a bit spoiled. If you’d given 75% of the island the option to have Ms. Cox take over the premiership directly after the Uighur incident, then they’d have proverbially bitten your hand off.

    I’ll try to approach her reign with an open mind, but there will always be doubts that the economic time bomb she has to address is of her own making. It’s a bit like electing George W. Bush for a second term on the grounds that he’s the best man to sort out the situation in Iraq.

    I don’t find Ms. Furbert’s views about the interests of the PLP being more important than those of Bermuda surprising – it’s the same line that all political zealots take. “We know best, therefore anything we do to stay in power is for the best”.

    It’s interesting that Ms. Furbert recalls that her and Dr. Brown are products of the 60’s, and therefore have an ideal and approach that came out of this. I think Bermuda is just about ready to move on, and it appears that we’re going to get the chance in the upcoming months.

    In the meantime, let’s have a big ole fairwell party! I wonder if all 3 candidates are invited? I wonder if they’ll come, and if so, where they’ll sit. I wonder if Dr. Brown will use the stage as a forum to endorse his candidate, and if that will be the end of the ‘election’. Hrm…

  99. Of course all 3 candidates are invited to the Premier’s Farewell Gala, in fact all of Bermuda is invited. Dr. Brown is using this event as a way to raise money for the Party, as he has done in the past. I think it is a novel idea. I can tell you that it is well-subscribed. People are calling me all the time looking for tickets. Believe it or not there are some people in Bermuda who really appreciate Dr. Brown and are sad to see him step down.

    Bermuda is moving forward, we have no choice. We moved forward with Dr. Brown and soon we will be moving forward with Ms. Cox.

    I have no doubt that at the next election the people’s choice will once again be the PLP.

  100. Bermuda is moving forward, we have no choice. We moved forward with Dr. Brown and soon we will be moving forward with Ms. Cox.

    No doubt we’re moving “forward” – we can’t go back. But just because things are changing and we’re “moving on” doesn’t mean things are improving. The glory days of tourism are gone, probably forever, and IB is on ever more shaky ground.

    I don’t think you are understanding yet that what is “good for the Party” is definitely good for Bermuda.

    Not at all. What’s good for Bermuda is good for Bermuda. What’s good for the PLP is good for the PLP. And what’s good for Ewart Brown is good for Ewart Brown.

    The three categories may overlap from time to time but they are definitely not the same. (And let us not forget that after the night of the long knives Dame Lois wanted to expel the entire rebel group for the good of the party.)

    But your placing the party above the country brings to mind an old saying:

    Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when it’s right!

  101. I see by today’s newspaper that Bermuda has the third highest expat salaries in the world. To mean that means that Bermuda is moving forward and we’re all benefiting.

    As far as your comment about Dame Lois, I think we all learn from our mistakes, even the PLP membership.

  102. Laverne – allow me to help, a major reason we have the third highest expat salaries in the world is the crushing supply demand imbalance. Several reasons lie behind this

    1. The PLP have allowed spending to spiral out of control, saddling our children with debt and this has manifested itself mainly in a bloated civil service which is both inefficient and crowds out the private sector.
    2. The appalling neglect of the education system means that many children graduate school incapable of competing in a service economy.

    If you are genuinely proud of living in a high cost indebted country then I can fully understand why you support Paula.

  103. “I see by today’s newspaper that Bermuda has the third highest expat salaries in the world.”

    Incorrect. The survey results “revealed that about 13 percent of expats globally earned $250,000 a year or more, with Russia top of the table for earners followed by Singapore and Bermuda with 32 percent and 27 percent of expats respectively earning this amount.”

    But I find it interesting nonetheless that you will happily use the RG as a source when it suits your argument but immediately castigate the ‘combined opposition’ should they print an unflattering article.

    “To mean that means that Bermuda is moving forward and we’re all benefiting.”

    Tell that to the hundreds (if not thousands) of Bermudians who are out of work or unable to make ends meet.

    Tell that to your children and grand children when they ask in the future why their pay checks have ever increasing payroll tax (or other) deductions to settle the $1B debt servicing obligations (or more likely a greater amount by then) which your Premier and Minister of Finance have burdened all of us with (given that the PLP rank ahead of Mr. & Mrs. Bermuda in your playbook, note the use of ‘your’).

    Tell that to the friends and families of gun violence victims.

    Tell that to the parents of children in the public school system who struggle to comprehend why the PLP have failed miserably (7 Ministers in 12 years) to improve the education system.

    Tell that to seniors who are being disadvantaged by an unfair and unsustainable Future Care model.

  104. 32n64w

    Sorry but, due to who you are, your pleas are falling on deaf ears. The PLP faithfull are still feeling to good about sticking it to the white man and as far as I can tell the belief is if it not good of the above mentioned it must be good for the majority members of the PLP. This has nothing to do with Gov. performance at all. So again save your money open a foriegn bank account and protect your money if you have any to save.

  105. lmfao …how de hell we been moving forward when de conditons in de country due to poor governance have show increases across the board in social conditions n negative issues effecting the average working class people in bermuda…the majority who earn under the poverty line?

    with labour day comming….labour in bda should be royally pissed off since we have been sold out by a so called labour party and sold out by that labour parties union.

    union leaders have close ties to politicians…birds of a feather flock togeather where poor money management matters and unethical behaviour comes in.

    the union of the plp ear in government is just as corrupt as the “plp ,who has been out ubping the ubp”… jullian hall

    “they drink champaign n laugh” peter tosh… down presser man

  106. $250 a plate a pig while poor people suffer like dogs on the streets. This man and all who support him are trash, spit and vomit. one day we will put all responsible for this Arrogant Scorn Party on trial for crimes against poor people.
    National socialumus!

  107. As far as your comment about Dame Lois, I think we all learn from our mistakes, even the PLP membership.

    So the Dame was right? And the PLP membership did make a mistake? And they’ve learned from it how?

    I see by today’s newspaper that Bermuda has the third highest expat salaries in the world. To mean that means that Bermuda is moving forward and we’re all benefiting.

    As has already been pointed out, that’s not what the survey said. And the fact that a relatively small group of expats is doing well does not mean that the same can be said about Bermudians.

    But I find it interesting that not only are you quoting the Combined Opposition but you’re claiming that expats doing well is a sign that we all are. As the saying goes, that does not compute.

  108. 32

    Just being real. To much energy worring about what LF say or the the PLP sometime things are the way they are. You choose to be involved or not. Although your points are good some just take your arguments and twist it into the us vs them plot having the exact opposite effect.

    @ LV tell Logiclly Speaking I forgive him.

    Exprogressive Mind

  109. Just curious, ‘cuz I can’t figure out what you’re saying, Chris…

    are you suggesting that folks like 3264 just… not say anything?
    Like, should they be silenced because folks like Ms. Furbert will twist their words to suit their need?

    If so…

    Seriously?

    Isn’t the problem with the person twisting the words and not with the person with good points?

  110. @ Elvis

    Yes, the problem is with the person twisting the words. However if the audience is not inclined to listen based on who he or she is they will not hear the message. People such as Ms. Furbert, Vanz, and various members of the PLP i.e. talk show types or propagandists will take your arguments and twist it as I’m sure you have seen in many debts on this and other sites to suite their needs. This ammo which you provide to them fuels the us vs. them and we (Bermuda) get locked into a stalemate. I do not think you should not talk about it communication is key but are the ready to listen? It’s a matter of perspective really. Like see the answers to a test before taking it. LV knows that if she can’t answer your points she falls back to what she knows in the debate and justifies it to others in her way so your point become a non issue.

  111. Ok.. so I’m not following.

    You say “I do not think you should not talk…” but then, basically, say that talking is a bad thing because folks will twist the words.

    I really don’t get what you’re saying.

    Personally, I believe the truth will out as long as it keeps being told.

  112. LaVerne,

    To pick up on your comment:

    I see by today’s newspaper that Bermuda has the third highest expat salaries in the world. To mean that means that Bermuda is moving forward and we’re all benefiting.

    If the statement were true how do you reconcile it with the claim in Friday’s Sun that highly paid expats are responsible for driving up housing costs while at the same time lowly paid expats are driving down wages?

    http://bermudasun.bm/main.asp?SectionID=24&SubSectionID=270&ArticleID=47906

    Having said that, the departure of many of those highly paid expats is in large part responsible for the bottom dropping out of the rental market. [A 7% reduction in IB jobs comes to mind.] Problem is that when the expats go the entry level jobs go with them. That means there is no Sven and Johnny because Sven’s job isn’t in Bermuda anymore. (Neither are all the support functions that go with it.)

  113. Again its a pick your audience thing. You must realize that some people will choose to not hear you no matter your message.

  114. Ok, I am just reading the comments posted here and I think I need to respond since my name was called.

    LaVerne, my comments about you barking up the wrong tree are, from memory, directly related to comments you made about RenMan being anti-PLP. I know some things that RenMan has and is involved with and I can attest to the fact that he is not anti-PLP. Having a friendship with you and RenMan is mutualy exclusive. Contrary to the way some view you and speak of you I do have respect for you and you will never see me ever speak to you or of you the way some others here and on other blogs do. Additionally, I have confronted some posters over comments made about you because quite frankly, I do not agree with attacking people in the manner that soem attack you, especially from behind a veil of secrecy. I have alwasy held the view that if one is going to make personal attacks one should at least do it in the light of day.

    Just as you and I have differing views on some things, RenMan I disagree. There is nothing wrong with disagreement and it should be handled in a mature and respectful way, which I know for a fact is the way you and I handle our disagreements and the way RenMan and I handle ours.

    You are absolutely correct in that I have no direct say in who the next leader of the PLP will be and my comments about who I think should be the next leader are my views and my views alone. Further, I have no knowlede about what transpired in 2006 when Dr. Brown was elected as leader of the PLP. All that I have seen so far is hearsay and I do as best I can not to form opinions based on hearsay.

    While I have a great deal of respect for Paula, I also would like to see the PLP retaint he seat of Government because with al its faults (let’s face it we all have our faults and the PLP as Government is no exception) I do not believe the other parties are qualified to hold the seat of Government. The UBP is the weakest Opposition Bermuda has had since the introduction of party politics. I have a huge problem with the fact that the BDA sitting MPs were voted in under the banner of the UBP and switched parties mid-term. I hold strongly to the view that each of them and I include Wayne Furbert and Darious Tucker in this as well, should have contested to retain their seats under their new banners by way of by-elections. The BDA, in my view give lipsevvice to democracy but fail in their actions for fear of, according to them, losing their existing seats to the PLP. However, democracy says, let the people decide who they want to represent them.

    My feeling is that Paula may cause many to decide to cast votes elsewhere because of the current debt bruden Bermuda is having to carry and this debt burden was significantly increased under her watch as Minister of Finance. Additionally, her stating that her hands were tied is an untrue statement as the Bermuda Constitutional Order details the repsonsibility of the Minister of Finance. Also I have not seen in any of Paula’s statements since declaring herself a candidate for party leader anything concrete to address the debt burden.

    Politics is a funny game and while I do not believe Dr. Brown has been corrupt, in politics perceptions is sometimes has more of an impact on the mind of the voter than reality. Paula is directly tied to Dr. Brown’s legacy as leader and I think there are many who supported the PLP in 1998 that today woudl not cast a vote for the PLP based solely on the perceptions of Dr. Brown….as I said that is a part of politics.

    Further, I am supporting Terry because I happen to agree with his platform for leadership and he has offered some fairly concrete ways of getting the country “back on the right financial track” and I also believe he will move the country more toward racial harmony. Let’s face it and be realistic, the country was divided along racial lines pre-1998, however, in the last few years that divide has become much much wider. Now I am one who firmly believes that the issue of race in Bermuda has to be addressed but I do not agree with the finger pointing and making people feel uncomfortable over the issue. I think the issue can and should be handled in a much less aggressive, in your face manner. It has to be addressed in a manner where real and true dialogue can occur. Its like with an argument, if we are shouting and pointing fingers at each other neither of us focus on the actual issue, our focus is on defending ourselves. In this way the issue NEVER gets the attention it needs for resolution. We end up taking AT each other rather than WITH each other.

    There are also some very key positions that Terry will be proposing that I feel with also close the gap between the political divide in Bermuda which is just as important and the racial divide because the two go hand in hand.

    While the new PLP leadership race is being fought in the public domain I thini we all agree that the decision rest with the delegates but I hope the delegates will be more swayed by the response from the public than they are from the show of force of sitting MPs who have rallied around Paula. At the end of the day the next leader of the PLP will only continue to also be Premier if the PLP wins the next election and in order to do that the PLP needs to convince the electorate, not the delegates of the sitting MPs.

    I know to many within the PLP Terry is viewed as an outsider but maybe that is a good thing because he has been in a postion to more clearly see where the party has lost much of its direction and focus on its core principles and I personally believe that the arty needs to move back to its core principles because that has alwasy been a strength of the party, in my mind. I think Julian Hall’s comment that the PLP is out UBPing the UBP needs to be taken seriously because the PLP has always been about the people, not the interest of small groups of preferred persons.

    Those are my thoughts.

  115. @ Guilden – Thanks for sharing, that’s a very good read.

    I think one of the main reasons that posters on sites like BIAW come across as overly aggressive towards the PLP is because the PLP lack any real voice in this forum – other than a very radical one. It is therefore good to hear from a more moderate, rational analysis of the PLP from a PLP point of view.

    Unfortunately I don’t think Mr. Lister has a snowballs chance in hell, as they deck is stacked so heavily against him. But I guess we’ve got a few weeks to see what happens.

  116. Guilden, you have said that you do not believe Brown to be corrupt but then in your last paragraph you comment:”‘the party has lost much of its direction and focus on its core principles and I personally believe that the party needs to move back to its core principles because that has always been a strength of the party, in my mind. I think Julian Hall’s comment that the PLP is out UBPing the UBP needs to be taken seriously because the PLP has always been about the people, not the interest of small groups of preferred persons.”

    A definition for corrupt – to alter from the original or correct form or version.

    Has Brown simply been another hapless cog, or has he had a deciding hand in the negative developments within the PLP, as outlined by you?

  117. Eructus,

    How do you equate what I stated about the PLP moving away from its core with corruption? How do you equate the comments that the PLP is out UBPing the UBP with corruption? The latter maybe can be equated if one implies that the UBP was corrupt….I know I never stated the UBP was corrupt.

    There have been may accusations of corruption leveled against Dr. Brown but to date none of those levelling the accusations have bene able to provided evidence of such corruption. So from my perspective, one is innocent until proven guilty in a legal sense. However, from a political perspective one does not need to prove any accusation to negatively impact an elected official. Case in point, many people in the U.S. have labled Barrack Obama a Muslim even though he has categorically denied this. With the constant barrage of accusations that he is a Muslim many others have gotten on the band wagon and the number of people that believe he is a Muslim have grown. This does not prove that he is a Muslim it just shows what some people are prepared to believe.

    I will readily admit that I have not been in agreement with many of the things said and done by Dr. Brown but that does not make him corrupt, it just means, for me, that I do not agree with anyone just for the sake of agreeing. Dr. Brown is the current leader of the PLP and by holding this position he is free to put forth and run with the agenda that he deems necessary for the party. The next leader will do the same thing, that is, operate the party on an agenda he/she feels is best either for the party and/or the country. Personally, I would prefer the political leaders in Bermuda lead in a manner that is best for Bermuda. By doing this I think they will also be doing what is best for the party because if political leaders put the country first and foremost than by extension they will gain the support of the electorate.

    So, to be quite honest with you I do not understand, and maybe I am missing something, how you can equate what I said with corruption. Maybe you would be kind enough to spell it out for me.

  118. Hi Guilden,

    You have suggested that the PLP needs to return to its core principles and operate for the people and not a select few. So by your words and my provided definition the Party has been corrupted in recent years.

    Does the blame rest upon the whole Party or Brown who facilitated the ousting of Smith and then Scott to achieve his stated goal of scores to settle, while in the top job. That mindset would not appear to be operating for the Public good and I argue is corrupting.

    If a UBP premier was doing what Brown has done with the Public purse and the contrived dividing of the country, during a recession and violent crime wave, just what would the current PLP leadership be encouraging? If past is prologue, there would have been violent demonstration long before now.

  119. Eructus,

    Maybe you and I look at corruption differently. Most, if not all Governing parties exhibit some form of favouritism, I think that is part and parcel of politics, not that I agree with it but it is reality….in U.S. politics, for example, it is called catering to the lobbyists. I do not view this as corruption, but will concede that some might and I accept that because we are all entitle to our individual opinions.

    As far as moving away from its core, I do believe that under Dr. Brown this has occurred moreso than under either Dame Jennifer or Alex Scott. Personally, I would like the PLP to move back towards its core as I do believe at its core it is a party that is more focused on the country than it is on individuals. This is why I am hoping Terry Lister wins the leadership race, I have to admit that I am not as optimistic about Terry winning as I would like to be because it appears that Paula Cox has been labelled leader in waiting and some may feel she is entitled to the hold the leadership seat.

    Time will tell and the direction the party takes under the new leader will be revealed once the new leader is elected. My position of how much or how little support I will give the party will be determined after the new leader is elected and the direction of the party is set.

  120. It is most interesting that we have opinions of the PLP’s core principals from people who are not members of the PLP. But that’s politics.

    It is also interesting that the word “coruption” only came into play in Bermuda politics after the PLP was elected. One only need compare the reports of the Auditor General, whom I believe, first spouted the term.

    According to BIAW Dr. Brown only has 54 days, four hours and nine minutes to exit the stage, yet there are people still spending energy on his leadership. As far as I’m concerned, there’s something wrong with that picture.

    By the way Guilden, who has labeled Paula Cox as “the leader in waiting”? Certainly, not her. As I see it there are three leaders “in waiting” Terry Lister, Dale Butler and Paula Cox, meaning that they’re all waiting to see if the delegates will vote for them. No matter the speculation, or the public meetings, or anything else, we’ll all have to just wait and see.

    As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think that any of the candidates are “entitled to hold the leadership seat”. I’ll judge them on their merit.

  121. So… you have to be a member of the PLP to know what their core principles are? Really?

    “By the way Guilden, who has labeled Paula Cox as “the leader in waiting”? ”

    Didn’t you once famously state that 85% of the delegates would vote for her?
    Sounds pretty “leader in waiting” to me…

    Oh, and if you think people didn’t call the UBP corrupt, your memory must be fading… or you’re intentionally forgetting things again…

  122. “According to BIAW Dr. Brown only has 54 days, four hours and nine minutes to exit the stage, yet there are people still spending energy on his leadership.”

    So should we just forget about his time at the helm? While we’re at it should we just forget about history in general?

    If you are so forward thinking Mrs. Furbert why did your Labour Day article in the Bermuda Sun not address the 21st century union movement (which would have been a more apt rebuttal) instead of focusing on what happened in the past?

    Dr. Brown’s legacy will impact our lives and wallets for decades to come … but I guess we should just forget about that because its easier to ignore the issues than address and/or take responsibility for them.

  123. The UBP is to blame for Browns corrupt leadership.
    They were the ones who came up with this personality profile candidates Dr. James, Julian hall, John Swan doctors, lawyers and businessmen have no place in the PLP ranks. The PLP was built by workers for workers according to the grassroots. Lois brown Evans stole the party from Wilfred Allen and other communists. The UBP bought black lawyers, doctors and middle class into the party as seen in the repulsive Uncle Tom Warwick and Hamilton parish constuencies. Professinals are the enemy of the black race in politics they only fill their pockets and spit on workers rights. Warwick has rejected the Union again those people are sellouts.

  124. Pensions are the biggest form of corruption. Rich fat cats who never paid income tax collect cheques every month like thieves along with their high rents.

  125. 32n64w,

    The editor of the Bermuda Sun asked me to write a column in response to Bob Stewart’s opinion. That’s what I did. Maybe you might want to address the 21st century union movement. Next time the editor asks me to write a column, I’ll refer him to you – 32n64w@catchafirebermuda.

  126. Brown is a byproduct of UBP trash. Dr. James Julian Hall John Swan the elite class do not belong in the PLP. Workers should vote for workers not overpaid professionals who do not pay income tax.

  127. The editor of the Bermuda Sun asked me to write a column in response to Bob Stewart’s opinion.

    So why didn’t you? It would have been nice if you’d actually rebutted his column. Instead you began by attacking the messenger and, even when you address a point a point in Mr. Stewart’s column you still insist on attacking the messenger, not the message (“a REAL economist …”). All that you succeeded in doing was demonstrating that you couldn’t prove him wrong.

    But given that the PLP apparently feels that unions are sufficiently unimportant that they regularly award government contracts to non-union firms that’s hardly surprising.

  128. I wonder why the editor didn’t ask either of you gentlemen to write the column. Believe it or not, some in the community have praised my column.

    Blankman, do you know any unionised construction firms. It is my understanding that a certain group of construction firms made sure that their employees disassociated themselves from the BIU, and those firms weren’t either Correia Construction or Island Construction.

  129. The UBP is to blame for Browns corrupt leadership. … Brown is a byproduct of UBP trash.

    NO Red! – Dr Brown is entirely a product of a sick, immature, and easily bamboozled PLP membership from whence he came! They allowed him to bully them into submission to his misguided narcissistic will. He essentially ‘bought’ his Cabinet so he could always have his way. All dissent was silenced. His regressive, often abusive and divisive policies; self-serving, free-wheeling spending with little to show for it; and ignorant, off-the-wall, promotional ‘ideas’ have all but destroyed our Country. I, for one, with be glad to see the back of him… and I hope that the appropriate authorities will quickly investigate his alleged dirty dealings after he’s gone.

    By the way, why did he go to India?

  130. “Workers should vote for workers”

    I see.

    What is the position of the workers you would see elected on Solvency II issues?

  131. Oh I dunno ace, ewart just “worked” Bermuda and is going out with a much greater net worth than he had coming in.

  132. letariatpro,

    “Oh I dunno ace, ewart just “worked” Bermuda and is going out with a much greater net worth than he had coming in.”

    Would you say the same thing about Pam Gordon, David Saul, Sir John Swan, Sir David Gibbons, Jack Sharpe, E.T. Richards, Sir Henry Tucker, etc. etc. etc? Or were they all upstanding, righteous men and woman?

    Have you ever thought about talking to someone about your obsessive hatred for a person that you’ve really never had a conversation with? I heard that Dr. Anandagota is pretty good with compuslive obssessive people. And now that Dr. Radford is back at MWI, he might also be able to help you and your friends.

  133. I’ve seen some idiotic statements posted on BIAW, but this one by Rennaissance Man takes the cake “@PittsBay, an excellent point. I don’t think too many would disagree with you.
    @eastend, while you are correct about the abuse of Filipinos, and asians in general here, the BIU will NEVER defend them”

    And he calls himself a rennaissance man.

  134. From Guilden on BIAW

    “Funny how you make these sorts of remarks from behind your veil of anonymity because you probably wouldn’t have the balls to talk like this under your real name.”

    Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!

  135. From Guilden on BIAW

    “Funny how you make these sorts of remarks from behind your veil of anonymity because you probably wouldn’t have the balls to talk like this under your real name.”

    Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!

    And that’s why your son doesn’t post under his real name. Nice to know that he’s been emasculated. The only question is whether it was by his mother or someone else.

  136. Blankman,

    I don’t think you know my son. You and your ilk are such nasty people!! Do you have a son, or a mother?

  137. What does that have to do with the fact that your son posts under multiple ID’s?

    So are you the one that emasculted him? Or was it someone else?

  138. Blankman,

    Tell me what are multiple ids he posts under. Also, tell me if your mother posts anonymously as well. Maybe your mother posts as Mysty, or Casual Observer, or what’s that other woman that you all talk to on BIAW – Alsys?

    I can tell you one thing, I have two sons, and if your mother’s sons were like my sons, she would be the happiest woman in the world.

    Let’s see how low you can go now.

  139. The thread is supposed to be about the PLP leadership contest, but has gone way off topic so let’s continue.
    This weekend there is a 4 day Gala Farewell for the outgoing Premier. Celebs and other non Bermudians are arriving to show their support and join in the celebrations. For a mere $25,000 one can join him and his wife on a cruise on the Venetian. At the same time, people are reportedly moving to the UK to seek recourse to the UK benefit system because they can’t afford to live here. Homeless people are too numerous for the antiquated Salvation Army shelter to handle. A press conference is held to trumpet how BELCO is helping a small number of people who use the hustle trucks. This is a so called Labour Party – what a tragic joke and embarassment, eloquently summed up in the Bermuda Sun yesterday by Sylvan Richards. True believers in what the PLP stood for, and what the founders and constitution stood for should be thoroughly ashamed. To date there has been a dealening silence apart from Dale Butler and Terry Lister who belatedly seem to have acknowledged this fact.

  140. Blankman,

    I was just thinking as I was having my supper of your last post. You know that I’m an ignorant old black woman so maybe you can help me out here You wrote that “my son posts under multiple ids”. I thought the reason that you and others use those stupid names like Blankman, Smoking Gun, Uncle Elvis, RenMan, etc, etc, was so that nobody could know who you were. So tell me, how do you that my son posts under multiple ids? Are you the administrator of this blog and BIAw? Something doesn’t add up here. Also, how do you know that the person you are referring to is my son if he posts under multiple ids?

    Are you saying that the identities of some people who post are shared amongst you and your fellow bloggers, while other identities are kept “secret”. I’m looking forward to you response.

    On another note, what does “emasculate” mean?

  141. Ms Furbert,

    Allow me to shed some light on my personal choice to “hide behind a veil of anonymity”. My choice to post under a pseudonym is not due to a lack of courage in my convictions so much as it is due to a lack of confidence in the ability of others to see the forums as a conduit for social and political discussion, and be content to simply leave it at that.

    My identity is well known to a select few whome I trust would not compromise my identity both online as well as in the “real world”. A couple of them are actually PLP supporters and maybe even a Senator or two. My views up until recently have been largely viewed as “pro-PLP” or “apologist” and controversial by the online community which admittedly is a minority opinion that could potentially have “real world” repercussions given the small community in which we live and the even smaller industry in which I work.

    I am not willing to have my family or my livelihood compromised simply because I have an opinion and am not afraid to express it.

  142. Now, I didn’t have a dog in this fight, but, as usual, Ms. Furbert feels the need to call my name as part of some bizarre denunciation.
    Sadly, it is, as has been pointed out every time she tries to play the “Uncle Elvis hides behind a pseudonym” game, completely unwarranted, as my identity is common knowledge.

    So I ask again…

    Ms. Furbert,

    Please stop accusing me of using “stupid names like… Uncle Elvis… so that nobody could know who you were.”

    It is a lie.

    “So tell me, how do you that my son posts under multiple ids?”

    Now, this question wasn’t directed at me, but as one of your son’s more favorite victims, I believe I can speak to this… not that you’ll respond to any of these easily proveable (with a little research) points.

    Your son Vance has posted under different names on many occasions, on many sites.
    How we know this is because he tends to lose control quite often and goes on bizarre attacks when confronted and, pretty much every time, has forgotten to log out of the pseudonym account and into the one where he’s “him”.
    He even went so far as to create an alternate account on Facebook to argue with himself because no one was paying attention to him! Of course, he slipped up… again… and posted as “himself” while using this account.
    This has happened time and time again, though not for a while, happily, and for you to play like you don’t know about it is the height of dis-ingenuousness.

  143. It is most unfortunate, but not surprising that you all missed my point. Why bring my son into this fight? Do you all have proof that the person you are talking about is my son? Why is it okay for everyone else to post anonymously and not him? Is it okay for his livilhood to be compromised?

    I don’t know who you are, who your mothers or fathers are or who your children are and I make no reference to them and wouldn’t even if I did. Why do you all think it’s okay for certain posters to constantly refer to my son? As I see it, you all have double standards.

    As far as “forums for political discussions”, what a load of crap. Mostly, these are forums to constantly attack the PLP and its leaders. If one supports the PLP, they’re also attacked. Don’t you find it strange that there are few “real” PLP members who posts on this “forums for political discussions”. Give me a break!!

    What is a PLP supporter anyway?

  144. interesting point Laverne about livelihood, your son publicly undertook a campaign of vilification against an employee of a Bermuda based business in order to try and humiliate him and get him fired (it didn’t work and Vanz’s letters to the head of IR were a joy to read.)

  145. So Mambo, are you suggesting that I should spank my son for stepping out of line. What’s you point?

    What’s your mother saying about the things that you write?

  146. Sigh. How’d I get pulled into this fight?? Ms Furbert, unlike the majority of posters, my pseudonym doesn’t actually hide anything. Most of the PLP members I’m glad to call friends know who I am in RL. I’ve openly admitted my real name etc on various forums, on my own blogsite and if anyone didn’t know, they could simply ask. Or connect the dots. Sheesh.

    That having been said, there is nothing wrong with using a pseudonym UNLESS it is is used maliciously. Which your son has. Not his fight either so that is the last I’ll say of him. However, to continually harp on people’s use of pseudonyms speaks more to the need to uncover for particular reasons than simply for knowledge sake. Personally, I happen to think that being anonymous can allow for a freer and greater exchange of ideas without all the need to labelize someone’s words. Because your assumption could be completely wrong. It allows you to argue ideas and concepts on their own value, not “attack the messenger”… well, for some it does.

    As to your question, a PLP supporter is someone who believes in the tenets of the philosophy that the party stood for and hopes to hell that someday we we truly become the “party for ALL Bermuda”. Not someone who simply accepts that status quo even when it’s obviously hurting so many of those included in the phrase “ALL Bermuda”. We are a good party but as a PLP supporter I know that someday, provided we remember that public service is to benefit all bermudians not just those that look like us or agree unquestionally with us, we will be the greatest party.

  147. Jonny

    By now you must see the thread is over LF and company have slapped it off the rail.

    UE see my point now or is the above a constructive conversation. Just sayin’.

  148. no Laverne – I dont think spanking your son will do any good as he seems to have enough issues as it is. My point was that you might consider your monumental hypocrisy before decrying the perceived faults in others.

    Have a great day, sweetie.

  149. and one other thing Laverne, people don’t have a problem with Vance because he’s your son – they have a problem with him because of his douche bag antisocial behaviour whether it be online, in the Robin Hood or at fatmans cafe.

    The fact he’s your son is just a freebie.

  150. Chris,

    I DO get your point, but I don’t think that you get the point that NOT addressing Ms. Furbert’s lies and misdirections just gives tacit approval. Not standing up and saying “No, that is a lie” and pointing out why gives silent permission for her to continue.

    Notice how she asks a question, then, when given an answer, she ignores it and continues on a different track?
    (By the way, Ms. Furbert, we know who it was because he admitted it, on several occasions, even posting under his own name on Facebook.)

    Notice how she defames and denounces people, then, when the truth is shown, she starts in on the attacks and accusations.

    Let’s take a look at her final paragraph…
    “As far as “forums for political discussions”, what a load of crap. Mostly, these are forums to constantly attack the PLP and its leaders. If one supports the PLP, they’re also attacked. Don’t you find it strange that there are few “real” PLP members who posts on this “forums for political discussions”. Give me a break!!

    What is a PLP supporter anyway?”

    Now, this is just a mishmash of bizarre ranting.
    “Don’t you find it’s strange that there are few “real” PLP members…” and then “What is a PLP supporter anyway?”
    The two are contradictory. How can she say so definitively that there are “few “real” PLP members”, then ask what one is?
    I’d like to ask what she means by “”real” PLP members”, but I know that she doesn’t have an answer, nor does she have the courage of her convictions to back herself up.
    She talks about the attacks on the PLP, their leaders and their supporters.
    Sadly, there are a few who do post out of blind dislike for the PLP, but those are VERY few. The VAST majority, though folks like Ms. Furbert would rather ignore this fact, are fed up with the mistreatment, mismanagement, lies, racist attacks, discourtesy, incivility and poor governance of the past several years, rather than “hatred of the PLP”.
    But it’s so much easier for her to ignore the facts and just paint us all with the same racist brush, playing little games of misinformation, misdirection and rewriting history.

    And I, for one, refuse to stand for it.

    So, yeah, the conversations may not be constructive, but by denunking her lies, they stop the destruction she is attempting.

  151. Mambo,

    Maybe you don’t know my son. I don’t think he’s ever been to Robin Hood. Too many white people for him there.

  152. As I said earlier, “Funny how you make these sorts of remarks from behind your veil of anonymity because you probably wouldn’t have the balls to talk like this under your real name.”
    I wonder which one of you would be willing to put your name to all the accusations that you have made about either me or my son. Not a one!! You’re all cowards.

  153. at the danger of following down a dark alley of pointlessness I have been there on a few occasions with him in residence there and the whiteness of the bar staff (I think she’s from Croatia) didn’t stop him from doing his bit for race relations.

  154. Point taken UE. I to have taken to task a very stunch PLPer (someone I valued as a friend) and when confronted they attempted the “So you think I’m dumb and by extention the PLP membership is dumb” approach but when they can’t answer and start saying “your right you have all the answers” it just closes the dialog completely so after losing a valued friendship I figure its just not worth the back and forth.

  155. Mambo,

    As I said, I don’t think you know either of my sons. I have two sons and neither frequent the Robin Hood. Both of my sons live outside of Bermuda, and my son Vance, hasn’t lived in Bermuda since he graduated from College several years. I just want to clear that up in case other people believe your lies.

    As far as Robert Stewart is concerned, if you want to think I was attacking the messenger, so be it. I was responding to his column.

    Nioe, when was the last time you went to Spnning Wheel or any other club where the patronage is mainly black? Most people like to socialise with their friends and family. Do you find something wrong with that?

    Now the lynch mob is attacking, one by one.

  156. LV and company is the closest thing to a lynch mob I have ever seen LOL sorry could not resist that seeing that, to use her words, her and her ilk read this stuff and then talk about it in the most negative possible light to all the talk shows as some sort of damage control but it is the evil bloggers that are attacking her nice!!

  157. Ms. Furbert,

    Again, because you refuse to accept it, I am not anonymous. My identity is no secret. I have made it abundantly clear who I am, where I work etc.

    I have no idea why you continue to play this silly little game of “You are cowards”.

    And…

    “Too many white people for him there.”

    So he IS a racist. Got it. Thank you for the confirmation.
    I’m going to take from your comment that it is ok with you, as well, to refuse to enter a place of business because of the skin colour of the clientele. Am I correct in this statement?
    If I’m wrong, I have to ask if you have spoken with your son about his racism and his apparent refusal to patronize an establishment because of the race of the people that go there. I mean, as a Human Rights Commissioner, surely “It begins at home” applies and you should have a conversation with him about it.

    “my son Vance, hasn’t lived in Bermuda since he graduated from College several years. I just want to clear that up in case other people believe your lies.”

    And yet he has claimed to voted for the PLP in the past couple of elections. He has also claimed to come down to Bermuda often, saying that, because of these visits, he has a better feel for the “pulse” of Bermuda than we, who DO live here, do. Ergo, he very well, based on his claims, have been seen in a bar in Bermuda. You say “I don’t think he’s been there.” Mambo says definitively that he has seen him there.
    Which are we to believe? Your assumption, based on perceived racism on your son’s part, or Mambo’s definitive statement that your son HAS, in fact, been in that establishment?

    And, in closing, can you please point out where the “lynch mob” is “attacking”?

    The inflammatory language you’re using is pretty despicable.

  158. “Both of my sons live outside of Bermuda, and my son Vance, hasn’t lived in Bermuda since he graduated from College several years. ”

    Does the Voter Register properly reflect this fact?

  159. mambo most def has me confused with another negro – a common mistake – i left for prep school, university, grad school and then canada by 1984 – so if mambo saw me at robin hood almost 3 decades ago – good on ya – i did however have a Ukrainian gf in 2003 and we stayed at the hamilton princess – maybe he saw me there pool side

    but it’s getting boring to see my name still in ur mouths – take it out – i’m done now-= unless u just like warm stuff in ur throat

  160. …and as far as my voting record – i defer to my hero:

    “I am from Chicago, and, so, having been disillusioned with politics at an early age I do not become involved. The only reason I vote is because they pay me.”

    David Mamet

    (he’s a playwright UE, Blankman etc.)

  161. Too many white people there????

    Is that something a member of the Human Rights Commission should be saying?

    Still await a response from Red Party on my Solvency II question…..

  162. “Both of my sons live outside of Bermuda, and my son Vance, hasn’t lived in Bermuda since he graduated from College several years. ”

    Does the Voter Register properly reflect this fact?

    Since he’s openly claimed to have flown to Bermuda in order to vote are you saying he’s a liar? Or are you simply saying that he’s “confused …”?

  163. “I don’t think he’s ever been to Robin Hood. Too many white people for him there.”

    LOL how’s that hate working for you, perhaps you need me to refer you to a professional.

  164. Soladarity goes out to America at War and all those who died in the war with Mohamadians Arabs September 11$744 billion was spent to hang the evil Dictator Sadaam Hussien and fight the barbarian Taliban in Pakistan.
    This why the world is in recession today.
    We all should burn a koran today.
    Bermudians died in 9-11 too.
    Burn a koran today for them!

  165. First off, disgusting, hateful nonsense.
    Secondly, THAT’S DISGUSTING, HATEFUL NONSENSE.
    Thirdly, Saddam Hussein had NOTHING to do with 911.
    Number 4, that’s disgusting, hateful nonsense.

  166. Freedom of speech america should invade Bermuda. Impose Income tax strip clubs and gun leglislation.
    We want freedom USA!

  167. White cowards 9-11 has produced white gutless cowards. Moving on to todays news The churches have failed to condemn the blatant bigotry of the PLP where does all this money go who signs the fat checks. How much was collected? Is there a list of names of the fools who went because if anyone of them recieves a government contract or scholarship grant any red cent the red party will hunt them down on their doorstep! Watch the movie waist deep. Game! NWA!

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