PATI Feedback

I just wanted to remind and encourage readers to send their feedback on the proposed PATI legislation. As I understand it the deadline for submitting such feedback is November 30th, so about a week and a half from now. The submission can be by email, with the relevant address being pati/gov.bm (replace the ‘/’ with ‘@’), or by post:

The Cabinet Secretary
Ref – PATI
The Cabinet Office,
105 Front Street,
Hamilton, HM 12

As I understand it they would prefer that you cite the particular sections that you are referring to as needing change, although I am sure if you simply write giving your general views, these will also be welcomed. Referring to the particular sections would however give your feedback greater weight.

I am not a big fan of writing template letters which produce several identical copies. In my experience these letters are largely dismissed en masse, almost as spam. It is my experience though that the greater the number of submissions, especially if they all focus on the same issues, will truly have an impact on policy design, and so I would strongly encourage individuals to send their feedback in, even if it is just a short email stating that you strongly support PATI being retroactive (for example).

When the PATI legislation came out I wrote a series of posts on it, including the sections that I was referring to as needing rewritten. If readers want they can read over them and get the various sections or ideas from my own writing, although I caution that individuals should also apply their own thinking and not simply cut and paste, as I am not infallible (lol!). I will be condensing all of my thoughts on PATI into a single document and sending out as feedback before the 30th, and I will also post this document here. If readers like, they are welcome to also post their feedback thoughts here too, partly for posterity and partly for impact. It’s up to the individual.

For those interested in going over my past posts on the legislation, they can click on the links below:

PATI-cake, PATI-cake… Kerpow!

Looking Over The Draft PATI Legislation
Review Of The PATI Companion Document
More On PATI – The 30 Year Rule
PATI & Retrospectivity

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179 thoughts on “PATI Feedback

  1. The paper said they had only received four submissions so far, which is damn pathetic. I sat down last night and wrote mine. Everyone, get off the blogs for 10 mins and write one even if it is to simply protest the lack of retroactivity in the proposal.

  2. We are workin on our submission!!!!!!

    correct chas….this is the only way we will be able to end corruption and no accountability in Bermuda govt and civil service and protect future generations….other points that need to be included in peoples submissions include:

    retro activity from the begining of record keeping in bermuda

    whistle blowing protection for govt employees when they uncover issues of concern.

    vast reduction of the exemtions list…..FOI means ALL information not just some!!!

    Access to all records that involve tax payer money being used in deals and contracts in order to track the money and ensure accountability

    the people MUST get their hands on a copy of the Jamacian lady consultants recommendations…excellent educational resource and lays the problems with the current pati bill out clearly

  3. I strongly believe that the PATI legislation should be prorated. If it is not, then those who feel that it should be, should fill the streets of Hamilton in protest.
    What is this Government trying to hide? We should be able to access information concerning the Berkley Institute fiasco … the questionable BHC scandal in which no one was charged except one … the Cedar beams … the Dockyard pier overrun not to mention all of the other overruns and many many other questionable actions taken by the current Government that has cost the taxpayers of this country millions upon millions of dollars.
    This PATI legistration should go back to when political parties frist started in Bermuda – not from the date it was legislated.

    Pat Ferguson

  4. Ms Ferguson

    I think the word you are searching for is ‘retroactive” and not “prorated”.

    And are you really asking about Cedar Beams? get over the cedar beams.

    I know your hatred for dr Brown and the PLP runs deep but please, get off your high horse.
    I would assume that you would then have no problem with the PATI legislation being retroactive to the 1960s when the UBP took over the country formally. I am sure many things will be uncovered about your beloved United Bermuda Party.

    I have read your letters to the editor and I see you may now be supportive of the BDA. Yet another ex-UBPer who realizes their day is done and wants to latch on to something else. Perhaps you are more anti-PLP than Pro any party, which is your prerogative, but it just gives clarity to your perspective.

  5. Also Ms ferguson, I do see that you want this legislation back to when political parties started…so why is your posting filled with such hatred and bitterness toward this political party.

    Do we know if the UBP and BDA support this retroactiveness? All i have heard is different people speak out, but not a clear position by either of those parties? You are only citing ‘scandals’ under this government, but I am sure you are aware that everything wasnt all kosher under the previous administration yet you make no mention of the mishaps under their reign.

  6. For the record, I DO support the books being opened all the way back, as far as we can go.

    And isn’t “Well the UBP did it too!” not an excuse any more?

    Hasn’t enough time gone by?

  7. The cedar trees are gone, the Cahows come back once a year, and a tourist has to find a place too stay.

    Black Press brings up some realities that need addressing but the Cabinet is full and overflowing………………Old mother hubbard went to his/her cupboard and found it had been emptied and sent overseas. PADI is investigating (Padi- paddy yah pocket).

    Gotta run……Soon Ah-Brown comming.

  8. Good day all,

    @Ken – as Elvis said I want to know everything that includes back to the UBP days too such as the airport under Maxwell Burgess I beleive something about steel just as one example. But seeing as the country as a whole had enjoyed a pretty high standard of living for most the UBP seem to grasp the concept that if it bad for the country it bad for them something I think the PLP just don’t get or care AKA the policing sittuation ie is it the public’s, fault the Government’s fault or the Governer’s guess we the common folk will not know. It is telling that the PLP want it their way or they will pack up their mables and leave on this country issue as party in this case should not be involved. How do you feel about this? If you are not just another rocksolid why do you not comment on thing like the Barkley, Courthouse, Police station of St. Georges(forgot about that didn’t you), and now the Dockyard are any Government projects come in on buget yet? I honestly do not know.

    CDF

  9. Ex PM,

    Firstly, I highly doubt you are an Ex PM, but nevertheless, where have I ever stated that I dont think it should be retroactive?
    I actually have no problem and would encourage it being retroactive.

    But I also am not gonna sit here and say that everything under the PLP has been all bad, and everything under the UBP has been perfect. I think you would find that most Government projects under both administrations have come in above budget.

    BTW the school is called The Berkeley Institute, not Barkley.

  10. I think its ridiculous that people pretend to know who is who. It is anonymous for a reason. Many people don’t want their identities known and that is the right of all on here. It is a way of deflecting the post content and scaring others into thinking “big brother is watching” Don’t worry about who is who and what circles they run in. Focus on the content of their post and address it if you choose or just scroll on by. Quite simple really.

  11. Ok, if he/she is an Ex-PM, then i will take that to be the case.
    I can only go on their word, and i will trust Jonathan on his.

  12. The argument for not making it retroactive is because the records aren’t in good enough order. This is why in Cayman it was only 18 months after the law was enacted that it went into force. Departments needed to be properly trained, “information statements” describing records needed to be written and records needed to be put in a clear system if one wasn’t already in place.

    Apparently, Ireland also does not have a retroactive law for the same reason.

    Implementation is going to be a very big challenge, but there could be phased implementation so that departments could start with records from date of enactment and be given time to prepare for the releasing the rest of their documentation. Its not an all or nothing matter. Beyond matters of access, I think retroactivity is important to make sure that attention is paid to government records so that what will become Bermuda’s historical record is in decent shape.

  13. “But I also am not gonna sit here and say that everything under the PLP has been all bad, and everything under the UBP has been perfect.”

    Um

    I don’t think ANYONE is saying that.

    Not even a little bit.

    But there’s been some pretty shady stuff going on, under both administrations, and I think that we have a right to know.

    I AM glad that you want it more retroactive, though, ken.
    Thanks for making that clear, amigo.

  14. Thanks Suzanne
    A phased in approach which allows PATI to previous years info seems to make sense. As you infer, all does not need to be available on day one.

  15. I think what bothers me à bit is that some people seem to only want PATI because they are hell bent on simply wanting to catch this government in a compromising situation. It isn’t really about the principle of Public Access to Information, but more about what can we uncover that will catch these guys? And to me intentions say a lot.

  16. ONLY BACKWARD BERMUDIANS WHO PLACE A PARTY OVER THE COUNTRY DONT WANT PATI

    ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY

    DOWN WITH CORRUPT POLITICIANS

    [Edited for obscene language]

  17. Ken,

    I agree whole heartedly with you. Even when you hear people calling the talk shows you know that the only reason they want the legislation is because they think they’re going to find out that the PLP really has had their fingers in the cookie jar. I think there will be a lost of disappointed people in Bermuda.

    Many Bermudians don’t realise how government works so that’s why they’re thinking like that. And if in fact, the PLP has had its fingers in the cookie, it will mean that some civil servants have had theirs in it as well.

    One of the things that Minister Cox did early in her tenure as Finance Minister is to make sure that an qualified accountant was assigned to each Ministry to ensure that procedures are carried out as they should be.

    I’m willing to bet that few people here are elsewhere have even looked at the legislation or how the Caymans handled it

    Some of these people are salivating thinking this will be it for catching Ewart Brown. Nothing happened with the BHC so they’re hoping this will be it for Dr. Brown. Poor souls.

  18. ken
    If here is public access to information it will deter present and future governments from acting in a manner that is contrary to the best interests of the country. If there is nothing to be concerned about from this government’s actions since 1998 (and previous ones) what’s your problem?

  19. I do think you’re right, Ms. Furbert… to a point.

    I do, however, think that there is also a point about it stopping future cookie jars from being plundered.

    I personally look forward to the PLP administration being exonerated, if, in fact, they will be.

    I think the problem people have is that the party that promised “the sunshine of public scrutiny” seems to be against retroactivity in PATI. This seems a little at odds with the promises made.

    If they are on the up and up, and, as I said, I would love to find out that they are, why not just show us? Doesn’t government, ALL governments, including the previous party’s government… some might say ESPECIALLY the previous party’s government!… owe that to the people?
    Don’t we have a right to know?

  20. If politicians (all parties) adhered to the premise of openness and good governance/examples, they would not be opposed to such matters as random drug testing, adhearance to the laws for which other people are charged, declaring their interests in any Government contracts, using decent language in the House and outside, requesting an investigation into rampant increases in Government contracts, tendering contracts openly or preventing contracts involving blind trusts, to name a few. The PLP came into power in 1998 promising to act in the sunshine of openness (paraphrased). In fact they have acted like a secret society and that breeds distrust and rumour. For example, the Premier’s response to the increased costs of the cruise ship terminal is classic “we are not pleased” – then have a public inquiry and learn from the mistakes!
    Bermuda deserves the best but it still operates as if it is still in the 1800’s except the names of those in the money have changed.

  21. Uncle Elvis,

    I think you will find out that the PLP is very much for retroactivity when it comes to the PATI legislation. However, what will you all say when you find out that the government (taxpayers) will have to fork out thousands of dollars to put the records in order to make the legislation effective.

    Whether you want to belive it or not, the PLP has always been in the “sunshine of public scrutiny”. That’s why we have Parliamentary questions, press releases from the government, CITV, press conferences, etc. etc. etc. and the Royal Gazette. What more do you want?

  22. Ms Furbert,
    You pose the question “what more do you want?”. I would say honesty, integrity, good governance, adhearance to the rule of law, and setting the right example to many of the youth who so sadly lack. Why is the Governement always blaming the Governor and going to the Governor for help? The Governor didn’t allow baggy pants to be worn at the knees, didn’t allow the rule of law to be disregarded, didn’t allow the family fabric to disappear, didn’t allow the “it’s our time now” culture. It really is time that the the present problems were faced without the usual “blame the UBP/Whites and let’s have another Report”.

  23. like it or not all the plp has failed to live up to international best practice in numerous areas of governance….pati is just one step needed to force bermuda governments into being accountable

    we have not had an accountable government for the entire life span of politics in bermuda

    u lot have set a piss poor standard in leading the nation in the areas of honesty, integrity, good governance, adhearance to the rule of law.

    piss poor

    GO PATI

    all power to the people by any means nessicary

  24. Alex Scott pushed for PATI only to be pushed out. Qudos to him for still pushing. Here’s an example of what PATI would provide. “Tourism” figures are released, occasionally, showing air arrivals. The Government has detailed statistics (Arrival Card) split between tourists, people visiting friends and family and business vistors but refuse to break them down this way. The latter two categories are immune to the amount of advertising money spent so show us how many tourists are attracted versus the amount spent. The taxpayer could then see if we we getting value for money, and how the money:visitor ratio compares to other destinations. As a prudent and well run Ministry such statistics must be discussed daily to ensure value for money, so release them.

  25. It seems that some people are confused about the role of the Governor. As Bermuda is an Overseas Dependeent Territory, it is Her Majesty’s appointed representative that is in charge of certain things, like the Police. The Government is not always running to the Governor for help. The Government pays the Governor’s salary, houses him and his staff, etc. etc. The Government is concerned about how the police are deployed and it is the Governor who controls police deployment.

    As Premier, Alex Scott did push for PATI legislation it was under his leadership that it was decided that the legislation would not be retrospective. Thankfully that will be changed.

    “As a prudent and well run Ministry such statistics must be discussed daily to ensure value for money, so release them.” Tourism figures discussed daily?? Pleasssse!! The Minister of Tourism will be discussing third quarter statistics that are calculated by the civil servants next week. The Minister of Tourism doesn’t put the statistics together, he just informs the public about them.

    I agree with you that the people of Bermuda deserve honesty, integrity, good governance, adhearance to the rule of law, and that’s what we have.

  26. Mr Bryce,

    Alex Scott was not pushed out. And his losing the leadership election had nothing to do with PATI. Get real.

    Also, your answer to Ms Furbert about honesty, integrity is highly subjective. Second of all, baggy pants does not a gangster make, and you are certainly generalizing based on attire.

  27. Alex Scott was the best Premeir the PLP had. The SOCIAL AGENDA was replaced by outright HATRED FOR THE POOR.

    PROOF: Close Indigent Clinic and let poor people die in
    their bed at Salvation Army.

  28. I’m grateful for Ms Furbert to confirm, apparently on behalf of the Government, that PATI will be retrospective, but I think I’ll wait for official confirmation, and the retro date, before accepting her response. As regards daily review of Tourism statistics I doubt if anyone else took my comment literally but why it would take such a big deal to calculate statistics. End of November to calculate stats at end of September – that’s 2 months – impressive (not) efficiency.
    I’ll rest my case on honesty etc as the facts speak for themselves.

  29. Ms Furbert,

    “I think you will find out that the PLP is very much for retroactivity when it comes to the PATI legislation.”

    Then why isn’t it in there? Why this seeming secrecy?

    “However, what will you all say when you find out that the government (taxpayers) will have to fork out thousands of dollars to put the records in order to make the legislation effective.”

    I will say “Finally. Money well spent!” I’d rather spend thousands of dollars doing that than millions to sports teams that can’t win or a Music Festival that doesn’t make any money back.

    “Whether you want to belive it or not, the PLP has always been in the “sunshine of public scrutiny”. That’s why we have Parliamentary questions, press releases from the government, CITV, press conferences, etc. etc. etc. and the Royal Gazette. What more do you want?”

    Honesty, openness and no more secrecy.
    Bringing in Uighurs under cover of darkness without telling anyone, then lying about them being vetted by the police… that’s not “the sunshine of public scrutiny”… just the opposite. That is but one example.

    Experience and history shows that your statement is incorrect. I’m sorry. It’s just not true.

  30. @ Ms Furbert – I know you’re as green as they come amonst the PLP support, but how can you even try and claim that the PLP are open and governing ‘in sunshine’?

    Seriously, I’d love a defence of the following, without a well the UBP suck/Dr. Brown is hated argument:

    1. Overspending on major capital works of more than 200%, with no transparency and explanation of how and why this occured (the Berkley performance bond is..?)

    2. Tourism figures that sometimes include business travellers, sometimes don’t, sometimes get compared to other countries, sometimes don’t, sometimes get released on time and in full, sometimes don’t.

    3. Last time I checked, we still had almost a billion dollars worth of unaudited, incomplete accounts in the public sector

    4. Full disclosure of the BHC situation has still not occured. I know it’s fun to brush it under the rug nowadays, but for someone happy to talk about UBP acts from 30 years ago…

    5. The minister of works and engineering openly admitted that tendering processes were not only not public, but that final decisions sometimes are made regardless of the independent advice gathered in a tendering

    6. The amount of contracts given out to ‘Howard alumni’ seem slightly disproportionate to their makeup in the global workforce…no?

    7. Is it unreasonable to want to know how much the music festival cost, and how many tourists it brought in?

    These are just off the top of my head. But if we’re in a ray of sunshine now, it’s going to be damn near blinding when a real PATI actually comes about.

  31. 1. Do you mean overspending or over budget? I think both the Premier and President of the BIU gave adequate explanations about the Berkeley bond. Obviously these explanations were satisfactory to you but you have the right to your opinion.

    2. I think the Minister gave an adequate explanation as to why business travelers were included in the tourism figures. Do you don’t get released or don’t get published?

    3. Who is responsible for auditing government accounts?

    4. What more do you want to happen with the BHC situation? The Bermuda Police and Scotland Yard investigated. I have no interest in talking about the UBP acts from 30 years ago. I was around 30 years ago and I know all about the UBP acts.

    5. The advice given to the Minister of Works & Engineering is never independent. As the Minister he has the constitutional right to choose contractors.

    6. Do you know any examples of Howard alumni given contracts?

    7. Do you expect to have the costs of this year’s music festival? Last year’s figures were produced.

  32. @ Ms Furbert, thanks for the responses:

    1. I mean 200% original budget. If this happened in another context, there would be people losing their jobs, inquiries into what happened and, most importantly, lessons learned so that it wouldn’t happen again. But it just did.

    2. Whether or not you agree with including business travellers is a fairly moot point – if one wants to compare previous years to recent years, that split must be made available for meaningful analysis. It must exist, it just isn’t provided. I assume this is because it makes the situation look even worse than it is.

    3. Haven’t we seen what happens when the AG gets their teeth into something? I would argue that the government, as head of the civil service, are responsible for providing the guidance, resources and incentives to ensure that these audits are taking place.

    4. Fine, if you feel that the entire BHC situation was caused by the one man in jail, you’re entitled to that opinion.

    5. If the minister is going to disregard advice given to him by those more qualified (though not constitutionally of course) than himself he should at least give reasons. Not just say it’s because I can.

    6. It seems a strange thing to make up, don’t you think?

    7. I mean why isn’t anyone doing a cost benefit analysis? Fine we know the music festival costs (off memory, was it $3m?) of the tourism budget, but how many beds did that fill? Given the low number of tourists coming in, can we have some analysis on the additional $ put in by locals paying for tickets? And then can someone explain why our government is essentially subsidising a fun event for locals from the tourism budget?

  33. Sara,

    When someone makes allegations, he/she should back them up with facts. LIF did not ask questions, s/he made allegations.

  34. LF says; “When someone makes allegations, he/she should back them up with facts.”

    LF also says; “I have no interest in talking about the UBP acts from 30 years ago. I was around 30 years ago and I know all about the UBP acts.”

    I wasn’t around 30 years ago so can you back up your ‘allegations’ with facts? I have yet to see any real ‘facts’ that prove any wrongdoing by the UBP, just conjecture on your behalf…

  35. Ken,

    I never said there were…

    I just found it ironic that LF espouses a ‘presentation of facts’ stance in relation to any potential PLP wrong-doings but does no such thing when talking about the UBP. How often has she said the UBP were bad but backed this up with no such evidence? Is the toilet paper contract all she’s got?

    And I do, honestly, want to see the ‘facts’ that show the UBP acted wrongly when they were in power. People constantly beat this drum but fail to present any proof of this.

    They say if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth… I’m beginning to think this might be what has happened.

  36. Realty,

    Not just the toilet paper, cars, furniture, computers, and the list goes on. But we’re not discussing the UBP of the past, we discussing the plp of today. Where’s the facts?

  37. LF,

    Since you won’t provide me with anything more than talking points, where can I find proof of these things? It’s got to be out there somewhere if you and so many others tell me it’s true. Maybe retroactive PATI would be a good starting place?

    And I can just as easily say yachts, cedar beams and kickbacks. However, that doesn’t mean you will believe what I say any more than I believe what you say.

    You make allegations and fail to provide evidence of such. You then tell others to present evidence when they do the exact same thing; often casting aside what they say when they don’t. Hypocritical much? Put up or shut-up. Provide us with the ‘facts’.

  38. DR. THE HON. EWART F. BROWN
    PREMIER AND MINISTER OF TOURISM AND TRANSPORT
    MONDAY, NOVEMBER 23RD, 2009
    A.B. PLACE MEDIA ROOM

    I am very pleased to make this announcement. It underscores the necessity for us to attract a low cost carrier to fly between Bermuda and the UK. You have heard me address that need a number of times.

    “Relatively high airfares. Not enough seats.” For a long time, that has been the headline for news about direct flights to and from Canada.

    Over the past year, one-way fares between Canada and Bermuda dropped 17 percent. At the same time, demand increased by the same 17 percent. That underscores what we all know: lower fares increase demand.

    Non-stop capacity between Bermuda and Canada has dropped 25% over the past three years. Conversely, demand has been steadily increasing during the same period, emphasizing the need for additional seat capacity.

    For a long time, we have been searching for a Canadian airline that would introduce a low cost service from Toronto to compete with the service that Air Canada has so commendably provided for generations.

    Beginning in May 2010, Canadian low cost carrier WestJet will introduce daily non-stop service between Toronto and Bermuda. WestJet’s new service will add seat capacity and provide lower fares.

    Canadian visitors to Bermuda and local residents travelling to Canada to visit friends and relatives or enrol in schools and universities will now have a choice in direct air service between Bermuda and Toronto, Canada’s largest and best-known city.

    As we approach the end of the year, the Bermuda Tourism team is currently assessing our 2009 activities and formulating a marketing strategy for 2010. This government will continue to give solid, strategic support to achieving the goal of increasing the numbers of visitors to Bermuda. I am proud of the way that Bermuda Tourism’s team has tackled our serious challenges and I want to take this opportunity to thank them publicly. We will never be on the side of spreading doom but, at the same time, we will be realistic about what we are capable of stretching ourselves to achieve.

    Thank you.

  39. I always thought that the PLP Government would have been jumping all over the opportunity to implement such legislation – retroactively.

    Mrs Furbert –

    Like some of the others, I was not around 30 years ago. I have heard many stories and can connect some of the dots myself as some of the conflicts of interest are pretty obvious, however would love to see the records opened for public scrutiny.

    Truth has been kept from the people for so long and I would love to see a Government that fought for equality bring the Truth to the people – regardless of how uncomfortable it might make some.

  40. Below is something that I’ve written about the PATI Legislation and Bermuda

    “ In my opinion it is most interesting that although the UN General Assembly declared in 1946, 63 years ago, that “Freedom of information is a fundamental human right and a touchstone of all freedoms to which the United Nations is consecrated”, it has only been in the last few years that many countries, including Bermuda, have made the effort to enact such legislation.

    Much has been said in Bermuda about the proposed PATI legislation, and most of the talk has been negative as Bermudians continue to criticize the PLP Government for not proposing such legislation earlier. Bermudians, in particular, members of the United Bermuda Party, seem to forget that party politics came about in Bermuda in 1963, 17 years after the United Nations’ declaration that Freedom of information is a fundamental human right. Few have questioned why the founding fathers of the United Bermuda Party did feel that Bermudians had a right to freedom of information. One wonders why the great Sir Henry Tucker, who is described by many as the architect of modern Bermuda, did not feel it necessary for Bermudians to have access to government information.

    Under subsequent UBP leaders, freedom of information was never a priority. Even the most beloved and longest serving leader of the UBP, Sir John Swan did not see the necessity of introducing freedom of information legislation. Even John Barritt, who has been a Member of Parliament since 1993, and prior to studying law, was a journalist, even working as the editor of the Bermuda Sun for four years, never called for freedom of information, prior to 1998. Have we ever had an explanation from anyone in the UBP as to why in their thirty year reign that they did not find it important for Bermudians to have the fundamental right of freedom of information?

    My research tells me that Bermuda is not that far behind other islands in the Caribbean when it comes to enacting the legislation. I don’t know if the citizens of these other islands made as much a fuss about the legislation as some Bermudians have.

  41. Thanks Ms Furbert,

    Like i stated earlier, i dont think many people have a problem with PATI, but why has it only become important, and somewhat of an obsession since 1998?

  42. @ ken & mrs furbert –

    Believe it or not, there are a number of individuals who came of age under a PLP Government. For them, it is more a case of simply being born a little too late to have called for or cared about the same legislation under a UBP Government.

    I can honestly say – as somebody who voted for the PLP in 1998 – that I do not care WHO is in power. The public have a right to information. Period. And I say that as a 20-something year old Bermudian who has come of age politically under the present Government.

    Granted there are no doubt some who are calling for the Act to be made retroactive in the hopes of uncovering all manner of juicy tidbits about who’s greasing whose palm. I think they’ll be disappointed as I’m sure that any incriminating evidence should it have ever existed, has long been obliterated.

    I support it simply because it is the right thing to do. Regardless of who is in power.

  43. PS. Might I add that I’m a little surprised that a Government that has long bemoaned the atrocities of it’s predecessors aren’t chomping at the bit to push through this legislation. It simply leaves one to speculate… But I have a feeling that’s exactly what they want. As long as rumours are allowed to go unsubstantiated ignorance can persist.

  44. realty,

    sounds like im not much older than you…….some advice…instead of asking people like lavern who put their party over country for answers on political history…try doing some research on your own.

    over the 50 yrs of party politics all the administrations have been involved in corruption n corrupt behaviour

    they made use of political positions to influence contracts amongst their own party members n friends and they who have owned companies set up contracts so their companies provide govt with services….from cars to stationary n every thing in between.

    this is known as corruption

    this combined with the arrogance of building an economic power house (IB) made them ignore the people crying out for various reforms, and solutions to the social issues, led the people to take a leap of faith and place the so called party of all the people … the plp in power.

    The plp got in based on a campaign of they will produce change in the system when they get in.

    they say history often repeats itself……

    so far its been business as usual in bda inc. with this current administration basically doing the same dirt the ubp did…it was corruption then n its corruption now..wrong is wrong

    the social issues have grown worse under the plp …based on them ignoring key issues…..education…housing…equal rights working environment..the economic divide and updating all of the outdated laws across the board and usher in true up to par governance based on international best practice.

    the solutions from the people are still being ignored…and the social issues slide further down hill.

    the upb and the plp are opposite sides of the same right wing religious ultra conservative coin…..one side is for white eleitism the other is for black eleitism.

    we obviously need to throw away the dammed coin and get rid of both parties.

    “the plp is out ubping the ubp” Jullian hall b4 he was pacified with getting his law license back and 200k govt job.

    ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE BY ANY MEANS NESSICARY

  45. CO,

    i think you would even find looking back that the atrocities supported and condoned by the previous administrations won’t be uncovered by PATI because records werent kept properly, and most ‘stuff’ wasn’t necessarily done through the auspices of the government.

  46. Ken,

    Your comments are extremely alarming. “Atrocities” is the word most commonly used for genocide, or killing innocent people. You are saying the UBP committed mass murder? As Ms Furbert said earlier, “where’re the facts”? Since there are none stop spreading such stupid and pathetic vitriolic nonsense. The UBP were not perfect, and for those not around at the time, as pointed out above by black press, the late Julian Hall summed the situation up very well, the PLP have out UBP’d the UBP. Now that is a sign of total failure.

  47. CO,

    I agree with you that it is just the right thing to do to make PATI legislation retrospective.

    If this government has “bemoaned the atrocities of the past” it had every right to do so. However, I think, if you removed your disdain for the Premier from the picture, you would have to admit that the PLP Government is really just about moving Bermuda forward.

    I worked as the Secretary to the Opposition Leader (Dame Lois Brown-Evans) for 11 years so I am well aware of the UBP Government’s behaviour. However, I do not believe that the intent of PATI legislation is to expose “wrong-doing” by anyone.

    I agree with this sentiment which I found on the Internet from a writer from St. Vincent.

    “A FOI law that includes these principles can help sow the seeds of good governance because it promotes greater transparency and accountability and also facilitates greater public participation in the government’s decision-making process. Empowering citizens with the legal right to access information on their Government’s activities can strengthen democracy by making the Government directly accountable to its citizens on a day-to-day basis rather than just at election time. Even at election time, an FOI law would give people better access to information concerning the Government’s record in office and this would allow them to make a more informed decision at the ballot box. Voters would then be less reliant on political propaganda and rumour and would be less inclined to fall back on their ethnic affiliations when casting their vote. ”

    You have written that you are a “20 something-year-old Bermudian”. Believe it or not, I remember when I was a 20 something-year-old Bermudian” and I believed that just like you , believe now, that the public should have access to public information. However, it’s taken 40+ years for PATI legislation to be even discussed, let alone legislated. So you can imagine how I feel, 40 years your senior.

    I still believe that majority of people who live in Bermuda and who blog under the cloak of secrecy, are more interested in the PATI legilsation being retrospective because it will “nail Ewart Brown to the cross” once and for all. You seem to be an intelligent young woman. Don’t you see what I see?

  48. P.S. C.O.,

    If Dennis Correia is really a crook, wouldn’t he have been crooked with the UBP Government as well as the PLP Government? My information tells me that Correia Construction did all of the major marine construction for the UBP Government as well. Or, is he a man that is just about “screwing” black people?

  49. “I still believe that majority of people who live in Bermuda and who blog under the cloak of secrecy, are more interested in the PATI legilsation being retrospective because it will “nail Ewart Brown to the cross” once and for all. You seem to be an intelligent young woman. Don’t you see what I see?”

    Even if that where true,
    He has nothing to fear, according to you,
    PATI should only be feared by evil men,
    Wouldn’t you agree, Ken?

  50. @ Mrs Furbert –

    I am a firm believer that when it comes to “screwing” people there is only one colour that matters: GREEN.

    I do not think that retroactive PATI legislation will provide any ’smoking gun’ as I am pretty sure that any evidence of cronyism is likely long gone. Although I could be wrong. I think in order to full embrace the spirit of transparency retroactivity is a must. Anything less is an insult to the people of Bermuda whose hard-earned dollars pay for Government services, contracts, etc.

    I agree that the calls for PATI legislation are relatively new. I put that down to a couple of things:

    1. Undoubtedly there are those anti-PLPers who through their own bias and mistrust of a non-UBP Government will call for all sorts of inquiries, a never-ending witch-hunt of sorts.

    2. Notwithstanding that more politically mature democracies such as the US and UK have had some forms of PATI legislation in place since the 60’s and 70’s, other players such as a number of countries in the Caribbean such as Jamaica and Trinidad did not enact such legislation until 2002 and 1999 respectively… which still puts us about a decade behind the ball…

    3. There are a number of individuals like myself who have no malice towards the PLP and have actually supported the party politically in the past, who came of age under this Government. There is a void in terms of public access to information which needs to be dressed. Regardless of who is in Government.

    4. There have been some inexcusable actions by this Government and were there some type of PATI legislation could prevent future instances of mismanagement and essentially force us to run a tighter ship.

    With respect to my ‘disdain’ for the Premier (your words, not mine), I find it difficult to have disdain or contempt for somebody that I do not even know personally. Do I dislike some of his actions as Premier? Definitely. Disdain? Harsh.

  51. these people that put a political party over their countries development will say anything to justify their backwards stance and to down play the common sense of people who have politically matured and attempt to hold government to every level of international best practice.

    they cannot accept that modern day bermudians are more developed due to their exposure overseas and some have grown beyond the BS of party politricks from the small minded political party nut cases

    we aint back in the 60 70s or 80s… no government no matter what p should be blindly trusted without question!

    u old people who had your chance to run this country properly need to get out of the way and or die so we younger people who dont carry your baggage can attempt to correct your generations messes

    200 million wasted dollars = more poverty for the poor = more drug abuse n crime while the minority rich stay rich.

    the queen should be greeted by a mass protest that outlines the struggles of the people under this so called labour govt.

    perhaps then the international press coverage will prompt the uk to act swoop in and restructure Bermuda so that all can equally access the percapita wealth income that the few hord to themselves.

    We have distain for any government that does nothing to improve the plight of the working poor, the economic gap and fix the social issues that WILL make this place like jamaica without even going indipendent

    And we have even more distain for the party politic a holes who try and down play the problems in this country…F U ALL!!!

    ( EDITED FOR FOWL LANGUAGE)….. 🙂

  52. ‘Disdain’ ‘nail to the cross’ ‘atrocities’

    ‘honesty, integrity, good governance, adhearance to the rule of law’ ; ‘sunshine of public scrutiny’

    There’s some serious sticking to message going on here. It’s beginning to read like a brochure…

    As is typical of ‘debate’ with you, Ms. Furbert, you’ve not actually address my points above, rather just asked more questions and then ignored them. And then challenged me to produce facts. As if we don’t already know them:

    1. Berkeley school – 200% over budget. Fact. New pier, 200% over budget. Fact. Lessons learned in capital development? None.

    2. Uighers snuck in under noses of electorate. Fact. Premier then lies about police security assessment, in our house? Fact.

    3. Tourism reporting that makes it impossible to directly compare previous performance to current? Fact.

    4. Large public sector contracts given without open tendering, explanation or reason? Fact.

    I can keep going if you’d like. But it doesn’t matter what I say.

    The collective group of people categorised simply as ‘white’ Bermuda (which somehow now includes a decent chunk of black Bermuda, all hail the combined opposition) only want public access to information so we can purge our subconscious resentment at such a strong, charismatic and visionary leader.

    That’s what it says right there on the hymn sheet, so keep on singing.

    PATI should be something every single Bermudian should want. If the PLP wish to be above suspicion they should stop damn well bringing it upon themselves. I could care less who governs my country, as long as they do a good job, and remember that they’re only working for US not for themselves.

  53. I see you all missed my point, which doesn’t surprise me. The UN General Assembly declared in 1946, 63 years ago, that “Freedom of information is a fundamental human right and a touchstone of all freedoms to which the United Nations is consecrated”. I guess people who post here only became politically aware ten years ago, or where not around when the UBP was in power. The fact of the matter is that the draft legislation is here and you all can suggest whatever changes you think necessary.

    It is my understanding that it will be retrospective. I need not say anymore.

  54. I just wonder what the argument will be if the government does make it retroactive, which I do believe will be done.

    Next, you all will complain about the cost of the retroactivity.

    Or if it is made retroactive, and no smoking guns are uncovered regarding this administration, you will say there has been a cover up.

    which is why it is largely a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.

  55. @ Mrs Furbert

    A couple of things:

    1. Does it not strike you that it WAS in fact the PLP government under Alex Scott who even introduced the idea of PATI legislation? So isn’t public support for it one of those perhaps rare instances where this government has had the collective support of the electorate?

    2. It is more likely that such legislative changes would have only come about with the changing of the guard because the old guard may have been more interested in maintaining the status quo than they were with transparency (incidentally, that may also be one of the reasons why they found themselves ousted from Gov in 1998)… so isn’t this a natural evolution which should not be seen as an attack on the PLP (although yes there are some who would like to use it as such) but more importantly the CURRENT Government doing what the PREVIOUS Government failed to do?

    3. PATI legislation was again first proposed under Alex Scott. Pre-Dr Brown, Pre-Uighurs, Pre-Dockyard pier, Pre-Pay to Play, Pre-Court Building… Before a lot of things. But most telling POST-UBP – because they wouldn’t do it.

    Again, believe it or not there is a growing segment of the population who have come of age subsequent to the PLP being in power. 63 years ago my parents were not even born. In fact, my GRANDparents were very young children at the time. I can only speak for myself when I say the number of young Bermudians who could care less about who is in Government is growing. For this segment of the population with NO prior knowledge about the UBP, the PLP IS the status quo. And they need to be careful about it as many now view the oppressed as the oppressor.

  56. IMO, the reason why FOI legislation was not actively called for under the UBP Gov’t was because the alleged corruption and graft that took place under that Gov’t was not quite as OBVIOUS as that allegedly committed by the PLP Gov’t… who were either naive or didn’t give a shiznit if they got caught red-handed. I feel the PLP thought they would be in power forever, so they had nothing to worry about… until the BDA came along. Oops!

  57. @ starman – I disagree. I doubt that the UBP in their arrogance ever thought they’d see the day when they would in fact form the Opposition and likely had very little inclination to cover their mess.

    I don’t think that their indiscretions were subtle, I think that the electorate largely chose to ignore them as such…

  58. If it is in fact retrospective and thorough, we’ll all be happy voters.

    5 years ago a lot of us were asking if, after another 5 years and a decade in power, the PLP would still resort back to ‘well the UBP did it’ or, ‘you didn’t ask the UBP’ that. It would appear that this ‘defense’ will continue perpetually.

  59. Casual Observer,

    What do you mean does it strike me “that it WAS in fact the PLP government under Alex Scott who even introduced the idea of PATI legislation”? That is the whole point that I’ve been trying to make.

    I see no public support for the legislation. All I see is people complaining that it has not been made retrospective.

    I am quite aware that there is a growing segment of the population who have come of age subsequent to the PLP being in power – one of my sons fits into that category. However, he did not just become politically aware when he reached the age of 18. He, like the children of many of the older members of the PLP, was made politically aware by family members.

    As a member of the PLP I know that there are enough young Bermudians who do care who is in Government. Hence the large number of young people actively involved with the PLP at all levels.

    It is my view that those who view the PLP as the oppressor have never attended a PLP meeting and have gained most of their knowledge of the biased Bermuda media.

  60. Is it not true that under the UBP, the government was not in debt? The current government has outrageous debt. That alone might be enough for some to call for more transparency.

  61. Okay, kindly provided in today’s RG is a great example of why PATI would help us evaluate performance. This quote from Dr. Brown:

    “Just under 60,000 guests stayed in all hotels during this third quarter, a very small decline of one percent over last year. On the other hand, there were dramatic increases in the accommodation categories of Small Hotels and Cottage Colonies. They experienced increases of almost 40 percent and just over 30 percent respectively.”

    With just this information, can we make any statements about overall performance? No. Because we have no absolute comparators, and no actual figures for the small hotels and cottages. It’s possible from this information that 2 more people stayed in each.

    On the one hand, perhaps we should be kind, and say that the premier is just tailoring his message, and trust that it is indicative of the absolute truth.

    On the other, if he just gave us the full results, then we wouldn’t have be curious.

    Of course, I’m sure by me being curious about the true figures that indicates something other than curiousity…

  62. starman, funny!

    i dont think anyone in the PLP is scared of the BDA taking power. In fact, i think from most comments to the press and policy related discussions that the PLP and the BDA seem more in sync on moving Bermuda forward and it is actually the UBP that seems to be out of step.

    I also agree with CO that the UBP thought they would be in power forever so therefore didnt care about the legislation.

    I also believe that this legislation will be passed, it will probably be retroactive, but then there will be other issues that you guys will find.

    CO, it is also interesting though, that Mr Scott is calling for it to be retroactive now, but when he was the Premier and first brought up this legislation, his stance was that it should NOT be retro because of the costs associated with it.

  63. I also hope that all of you that are clamouring for this to be retroactive have sent in your submissions. Its makes little sense to be blogging about it all day long, but not sending in a submission to back up your stance.

  64. I see no public support for the legislation. All I see is people complaining that it has not been made retrospective. This is a classic example of PLP ‘spin’… why would folks complain that it isn’t retroactive if they didn’t care or support the legislation? Of course a majority supports the FOI legislation, where have you been LF…??

  65. “It is my view that those who view the PLP as the oppressor have never attended a PLP meeting and have gained most of their knowledge of the biased Bermuda media.”

    Who has said that the PLP is “the opressor”?

    Just curious…

  66. LIF,

    Why would you say that there are no actual figures for the small hotels and cottages? If the statistician at the Department of Toursim calculated that the small hotels and cottages “experienced increases of almost 40 percent and just over 30 percent respectively, he must have figures to show this. The Tourism Minister does not come up with the figures himself.

    Are you just getting your information from the article in the Royal Gazette? It’s interesting that the Royal Gazette report has 674 words and the actual press release from the Minister of Tourism has 1,862 words.

  67. Too funny: i dont think anyone in the PLP is scared of the BDA taking power. They should be, Ken, all they need is a few seats to control the balance of power in the House. Plus, the PLP has lost a lot of respect and support since the Doc has been controlling everything.

  68. @ Ms Furbert – I have no doubt that the Premier is using absolute figures to calculate those percentages, I just want to know why we can’t have them.

    A 40% increase on 10 is only 4 more people. A 40% increase on 1,000 is 400. And so forth. That’s why I’m curious.

    I’ve read the Plp.bm site too, it’s not provided there either.

    My point is simply that if we had PATI, the raw, tabulated data would be available and I could answer the above question.

  69. “I see no public support for the legislation. All I see is people complaining that it has not been made retrospective.”

    Are you serious? OF COURSE people are calling for it. You yourself stated that you do not see why people seem to have become so interested in such legislation over the past 10 years. Whether it’s just to try and “nail Ewart Brown to the cross” as you say, you cannot seriously sit here and say that there is no public support for PATI legislation. I’d venture to guess that support for it has never been greater. Even if only for what you would likely chalk up to ‘all the wrong reasons’.

    It’s there. The Government asked for feedback from the people of Bermuda. Many people are asking for retroactive PATI legislation. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater simply because people are asking for broader coverage.

    I cast my first vote in 1998. It was a vote for the PLP. I represent the first generation of Bermudians who have no political connection to the UBP as a Government. As long as I have been voting, the UBP have been the Opposition. That is the reality for every bermudian presently between the ages of 18-33… and that number grows every year.

    I’m sure that your organization is able to attract the attention of a number of politically minded young people, many of whom have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of what life was like under a UBP Government. Scare tactics will only take you so far as the UBP eventually learned. Unfortunately, I think it’s a lesson that the PLP now need to be taught which is sad.

    I can say that I’ve never attended a PLP meeting. But then again I’ve never attended a meeting for any political party. I’m critical of party politics in general. And for that matter I don’t buy the Royal Gazette either. I’ll read online but am an admitted skeptic as I have some firsthand experience with “reporting” gone horribly awry. I do have a pretty strong opinion on right and wrong which supercedes any party.

  70. Starman,

    You’re joking aren’t you? BDA has three MPs, the UBP has seven, there are two independents who both have said they have no interest in going back to the UBP. The PLP has twenty-two MPs. While I do agree that some people have a problem with Dr. Brown, there are many, many people who have the utmost respect for him, so much so that there is campaign going on encouraging him not to step down next year.

    LIF,

    The Premier is not using figures. It’s the civil servants who use the figures. Maybe if you contacted the Department of Tourism you could get those figures, rather than speculating. What would the Premier have to gain by skewing the figures?

    Casual Observer,

    As I said, all I see is people wanting the PATI legislation hoping that they can find some “dirt” on the PLPl. I see nor hear of anyone talking about the other benefits that PATI legislation offers.

    Yes, the Government is asking for feedback, and it is my understanding that they’ve only received about 3 or 4 submissions. As I said before, I do believe that once the legislation goes to Parliament the retropspective clause will be added.

    Even though you voted for the first time in 1998, that does not mean you have no political connection to the UBP. From 1963 until the 1998, the UBP helped to shape or “unshape” the lives of Bermudians.

    Who tried to use scare tactics?

  71. CO,

    your caveat of not buying the RG but reading it online, means that you still read it. Where and how you read it is less important than the fact that you do read it.

    Secondly, I am 33 years old and I do remember quite vividly the scare tactics used by the UBP in 1993 and 1998. While I am admittedly a PLP supporter, I do agree that in certain areas we have dropped the ball, and there will be other supporters that agree with me, however the predominant portion of people that i talk to are not entertaining the BDA or the UBP as viable alternatives at this time.

    Unlike some of you, there are many that can separate their issues with certain politicians from becoming an issue with a Party, and/or with a government.

    Also i concur with Ms Furbert, that the civil servants to the data collection, surveying etc. While the PRemier and his ministers give the speeches etc, they are not the ones doing the grunt work, for lack of a better word.

    I also dont hear cries from the general populus for this PATI legislation. In principle I think everyone would agree to it. But i dont see any general Bermudians crying from the rafters for it. They will welcome it, and if asked about it, do think it is worth doing. But as far as major issues facing Bermuda, PATI is only up on the scale due to the RG and various special interest groups whose sole interests are to discredit the current government. If you can’t see that, then there is no real hope for this debate.

    Starman,

    the BDA can in no way control the house with 3 MPs. I think some of you believe in this lack of support. I think you would be surprised if there was an election any time soon.

    It will be really interesting to see peoples reactions to the next PLP leader…Once Dr Brown is no longer the leader, who will every problem Bermuda faces be blamed on?

  72. @ Ms Furbert

    “What would the Premier have to gain by skewing the figures?”

    Did you honestly mean to say that in reference to a politician? ALL politicians will skew figures if they feel it is to their advantage.

    Remember that the number 1 priority for all politicians is: To get re-elected (either themselves or their party). Everything else they do is window dressing and is subservient to their one goal – get re-elected and stay on the gravy train

    PB

  73. @ Ken – I agree that the UBP implemented scare tactics. It backfired on them eventually. I think the PLP are now implementing the same scare tactics – flipside of the same coin. I hope that they can either straighten up and fly right or that they too are taught a lesson and we can all grow up a bit and move forward politically.

    And no, I don’t buy the Royal Gazette. And I read it probably just as much as Ewart Brown or the average PLP supporter does… After all, one would have to actually read it in order to keep up with the lies, right? My point was that I do not take it as gospel any more than I take anything that comes from any of our politicians mouths as gospel. I do not personally blindly rely on anything as my source….
    A heavy heap of salt all around if you’d like.

    I agree that there are not general calls for it. Most people do not understand it, or are more concerned with day to day living – y’know getting their kids kindasorta educated in our public school system and trying to dodge bullets on their way to or from Happy Hour on a Friday night.

    Mrs Furbert – I have no more a political connection to the UBP than I have a connection to the UBP. Regardless of when I voted. That was my point.

  74. CO – question? what scare tactics are the PLP employing?

    I actually do read the RG everyday…i dont believe everything in there, i take it at face value, but i do read it, just to see what ‘stuff’ it is spouting.

    I agree – PATI isnt sexy enough for most people to cry for it. But i do believe it will be implemented, retroactively, and perhaps as someone posted earlier, this retroactiveness could be phased in. The retroactiveness will only be as effective as to the records that were kept.

  75. @ Ken – are you talking about the press release by the Premier or the statistical data, that we do not get to see ?

    What I am saying is that ALL politicians, UBP,BDA, PLP, Labour, Republican, Communist – you name it, they will skew the figures in someway to gain advantage. If you think Dr. Brown is above that, then you really have been drinking the kool-aid.

    PB

  76. CO,

    Can you give an example of PLP scare tactics?

    You are correct, most people are more concerned with day to day living, in fact all of us are. The public school system in Bermuda, like the public school system in most other countries, produces some good students and some bad students. One only had to look at the number of Bermudian students who received scholarships for the current academic year. They all weren not graduates of private schools.

    And, we all have a ” connection” with the UBP – they were they government for 33 years. We now have a connection with the PLP for the same reason. I am no way trying to infer that you support either party because it’s obvious that you don’t.

  77. Pitts Bay,

    I am talking about both the statistics and the press release.

    Also, I am sure that most politicians report figures in certain ways, but that is different from manipulating them in a way that could be malicious. We all know that you can take most information and report it in certain ways.

  78. Mrs Furbert & ken –

    “A vote for the UBP is a vote back onto the plantation”

    – I understand the metaphorical context of the statement, however it is clearly an emotive statement that was made at election time in an effort to galvanize PLP supporters. I also understand that one person does not make the party or speak for the Party. That said, your candidates presumably represent the party, no?

    – Quelling dissent by unfairly painting ANY critics of the present administration as UBP supporters. As somebody pointed out earlier on the thread “white” Bermuda now encompasses a significant number of black Bermudians. That’s a lot of “confused Negros”.

    If I remember correctly this is exactly the argument given as to why more white Bermudians never joined the PLP – for fear of being labeled by the UBP Government and the island at large as “ngger lovers”… It was a scare tactic used then by the UBP and I think it is being used by the PLP now.

    I do not disagree with you about the public schools producing some good students. My child is one of them. That said, our focus should be on why were are not producing MORE good students… Yes, the UBP ‘broke’ the school system… what has been done so far to fix it?

    Ken – I agree with you on retroactivity only being as effective as the record-keeping. I have my doubts as to the efficiency and as I stated earlier I do not think there will be any “smoking guns” – not because they didn’t exist, but because they have been long destroyed… I think the PLP Government does rely on some of those stories (which may be true, but will never be substantiated due to lack of evidence) – perhaps lack of smoking gun will present somewhat of a anti-climax. Call me a conspiracy theorist – LOL. I’ve been called worse.

  79. “Can you give an example of PLP scare tactics?”

    A vote for the UBP is a vote back onto the plantation…

    They are neo fascists that want to lock us all up…

    They will give 8,000 foreigners Bermudian status…

    They will flog us…

    Shall I continue?

  80. 9ps,

    The comment was that they will give 8000 Long term residents Bermuda Status, and that was part of the UBP’s platform, not just a ‘scare tactic’.

    CO & 9ps,
    Ok assuming those are scare tactics, none of those IMHO are as evil as underming an entire Party’s intellectual ability to run a country, largely based on their racial makeup…and prior to 1998, that is exactly what was done.

  81. Ken et al.,

    Honest question: when/how did the UBP employ scare tactics that ‘undermined an entire Party’s intellectual ability to run a country, largely based on their racial makeup’?

    Since I was still rather young in ’93/’98, I have no recollection of what was happening in Bermuda at the time – political or otherwise.

    And are there any other specific examples you can give?
    Thanks

  82. Ken,

    The UBP never said 8,000 that was the lie put out by the Premier during the election. It was later confirmed by others in the PLP to be less than 2,000.

    What about the PLP saying the UBP want to lock up parents – a scare tactic in the election only later put forward by Lt Col Burch as part of his crime busting tactics. Or the character assasination of Michael Dunkley?

    Agreed, the UBP used the mantra that the PLP couldn’t run the country, but evil? No more or less than the examples provided by 9ps and CO.

  83. Assuming those are scare tactics? Painting a party as a group of fascists that will ‘lock us all up’ is most definitely a scare tactic, and it is most definitely evil.

    And I am not disagreeing with you re the UBPs racist insinuations that the PLP were too stupid to form the government.

    Both were evil and we deserve better.

  84. @ realty – The choice line by the UBP was that IB would pick up and leave if the PLP gained power.

    @ The D – Agreed.

  85. “Agreed, the UBP used the mantra that the PLP couldn’t run the country”

    Where they wrong?
    10 years later.
    Debt and budget?
    Race relations?
    Crime, Housing, Education?
    Oh what has happened to our nation

  86. Casual Observer,

    I guess we call can look at statements made by candidates of both parties and take statements that they have made out of context. What I find interesting is how people can remember inappropriate statements made by PLP candidates and none made by UBP candidates. Is that what is called having a selective memory?

    I don’t understand your reference to the term “nigger lovers”. Can you explain further.

    Also, some of us are still around that have evidence of “wrongdoing” by UBP Members of Parliament,

    Theodor Geisel,

    Yes, they were wrong. Bermuda remains a very successful country under the PLP. But, like every other country in the world, we have our challenges. And please, let’s not talk about race relations.

  87. ken, for the record, when the PLP introduced the concept of PRC they themselves said there were less than 2,000 people who were eligible. The 8,000 number was put forward by the PLP during the election campaign – if that doesn’t qualify as a scare tactic I don’t know what does.

  88. “Ok assuming those are scare tactics, none of those IMHO are as evil as underming an entire Party’s intellectual ability to run a country, largely based on their racial makeup”

    But I guess its alright for the PLP to infer that due to the racial makeup of the UBP that it is inevitable that they will drag BDA and her people back into the days of slavery and oppression, because that’s what whites still want and crave…

    Got it…

  89. Blankman, 2000, 8000 – the point was that the UBP wanted to make these non Bermudians, Bermudian and that was purely for political power as within bermuda’s marginal constituencies, less than 100 votes could determine a victory.

    Robert Bryce, how did the PLP malign Michael Dunkley’s character? He admitted himself that they shouldnt have included that in their platform and thats why they lost. That came from mr dunkley himself.

    The UBP did say 3 strikes and your out, knowing full well that it would apply to young black males much more frequently that it would to their own children. Again, that was just using the UBP’s own words against them, not creating rumor and panic. This too was in the UBP platform.

    Theodor, Yes they were wrong. Has the PLP made missteps, of course? But every single problem in Bermuda is not atrributable solely to the Government of the day.

  90. @ Ken

    To your first point, I think deliberately using false numbers to spin a message is still spin, even if the message isn’t.

    If I were to come out and say that Futurecare will cost us $100bn I wouldn’t be wrong about the message (it’s going to cost a lot) but I would be wrong about the number, and just using a big number as a scare tactic.

    I think the Dunkley character defamation wasn’t actually done by the PLP officially, but by a, um, un-named illogical and belligerent PLP supporter who made it his life goal to insinuate that Dunkley was involved in a drugs scandal, just because he’s a sad person who doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions.

    Do you have a problem with the 3 strikes and your out rule? Should the UBP be proposing a crime platform somehow taking into account the lawfulness of their own children? That makes no sense.

  91. Lostinflatts,

    So it’s not okay to malign Michael Dunkley character, but it’s okay for people to continue to insinuate that the Premier stole cedar beams, is taking money under the table for Correia and DeSilva, and is involved in a whole bunch of other illegal or illicit activities? You people make me laugh.

  92. @ ken – I think the argument regarding the 3 strikes laws is flawed for a number of reasons.

    95% of the prison population is comprised of black males. Do we simply bulldoze Westgate? And the police station?

    95% of students in the public school system are black. The public education system is in a shambles. Do we just do away with public education?

    I don’t give a rat’s ass WHO proposes 3 strikes legislation. IMO when you have 211 offenders some of whome have been arrested 30 times, and increasing lawlessness we should be thinking about warehousing our offenders. Regardless of their race.]

    Oh. And FWIW the majority of offences are black on black… So couldn’t it be argued that the UBP are more serious about addressing crime in the black community than the PLP are?

  93. “Theodor, Yes they were wrong. Has the PLP made missteps, of course? But every single problem in Bermuda is not atrributable solely to the Government of the day.”

    Agreed, but its not about who did it, it’s the current government’s PAID JOB to fix problems regardless of who’s fault it is. Bermuda just can’t seem to move itself forward to get anything accomplished because of the he did this but they did that mantra. We are moving in circles.

  94. @ ken – I support three strikes legislation not because it would disproportionately lock up black males, but because it would get serial offenders off the streets. Maybe that’s why the UBP (a significant number of whome are black) proposed it.

    I support the implementation of social programs that seek to address the reasons for their re-offending, but at the same time I support anything that protects me and my family as law-abiding citizens from the small few who can’t seem to get it together. And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with race.

    When you have individuals who are unafraid of repeated trips to Westgate where they serve 1/3 of their sentence and refer to time as “coolin out”, perhaps we need to send the message that the next time we’re keeping you.

  95. @ Ms. Furbert – Not that I expect you to be able to be objective about this particular example, but no. None of it is okay.

    It’s like punching a stranger in the street because someone else punched you last week.

    Your mindset just speaks to why so many of us are depressed at where our politics have gone.

    ‘Oh well some people have said nasty, none truths about our guy? Fine, we’ll make up some non truths about their guy, that’ll show them.’

    Btw, if we had open tendering processes and PATI, no one could accuse the PLP of such things… (w/ reference to construction payoffs)

  96. “Blankman, 2000, 8000 – the point was that the UBP wanted to make these non Bermudians, Bermudian and that was purely for political power as within bermuda’s marginal constituencies, less than 100 votes could determine a victory.”

    I always figured that cuts both ways. If the PLP thought they’d vote a different way they’d be handing out status like candy.

    Regardless, the 8,000 number was a scare tactic because it was a colossal exaggeration and misrepresentation and you know that. A classic scare tactic. It’s like saying because Obama’s father was Muslim then Obama is actually a jihadist.

    If I were you I’d argue a different point because on this one you only lose credibility on other points. Even the PLP reduced the number after they got the headline.

  97. Lostinflatts,

    If a container of marijuana was sent to Bermuda Health Services, wouln’t you implicate the owner of the clinic as being involved? I’m being as objective as most people on this thread.

    Casual Observer,

    One thing is for certain, the percentage of black men in Bermuda’s prison hasn’t changed in the last 50 years.

  98. @Ken

    Firstly thank you for correcting my spelling of Berkley I was feeling very sick that day.

    Secondly 3 strikes and your out sounds realy good now that all these shotings are happening don’t they. Also to address your point about young blacks and crime are the PLP the one who say that the blacks are in the majority? We know they are so why does it not make sence that the largest part of the community also makes up the larges pool of people in all facest of life on this rock with the exception for IB which to your dismay is mostly expats not Bermudian of any type. Open your eyes. This agument is mute you are showing that you like to campain more that debate. Im fact I found very little difference in the plat forms at all (some small differences I admit but not anything that would greatly improve the quality of life for all) Oh and I had a person (PLP member spouting the same things you are about the 8000 needless to say he was not happy that his party find it easy or normal to lie to him. Any thoughts.

    CDF yes LF this is my real intials just cause you don’t know who I am is your problem.

  99. @ Mrs Furbert – Agreed. Which indicates to me that it doesn’t matter WHO is in power as long as the underlying causes remain the same. Three strikes legislation wouldn’t change the prison demographic either, but it might serve as a deterrent to those who are serial offenders.

    I know it’s hard to believe but things aren’t always so black and white. I support 3 strikes legislation. Does that somehow mean that because it will disproportionately effect my own brothers, cousins, uncles, friends that I am wrong for supporting it. The ideas have to come from somewhere right? Would the idea have been greeted with the same skepticism if it had emerged from the PLP? How about just a black Bermudian?

    Racializing every single issue has proven that very few issues actually get addressed. Perhaps if individuals knew they would get harsher sentences instead of a five year slap on the wrist if the DPP can even get a conviction, we wouldn’t have theatre patrons ducking bullets after a movie. And again I could give a damn the colour of the gunman as long as he is warehoused if he has proven that he is incapable of being a produtive member of the community.

  100. “One thing is for certain, the percentage of black men in Bermuda’s prison hasn’t changed in the last 50 years.”

    Not the last 10 right. In fact, I think it’s increased under the PLP.

  101. Casual Observer,

    I do not believe that the 3 strikes legislation would serve as a deterrent to serial offenders, unless of course the sentences came with compuslory therapy. Having worked for many years with those men (and) women who make up the prison population, I know that more than 3 strikes legislation is necessary. I do believe that the Mirrors programme will provide prevention and the cure of 3 strikes legislation won’t be necessary.

    By the way, I haven’t made any comments on the “proposed” 3 strikes legislation until this point.

    While you can call it “racialising”, the fact of the matter is that our prison population does not reflect the population of Bermuda and that should tell all of us that something is wrong, not only in Bermuda, but elsewhere as well.

  102. @ Mrs Furbert –

    I agree, it speaks volumes. But I disagree with labeling potential solutions as racist simply because a segment of the population will be over-represented… that segment may be over-represented for totally separate reasons. The effect and cause should not be confused.

    My personal thoughts on 3 strikes legislation does include intensive therapy – particularly in the case of crimes fueled by drug addiction, as a prerequisite to release.

    I think the individuals who could benefit most from a program such as Mirrors are also probably those who are least likely to attend.

  103. “While you can call it “racialising”, the fact of the matter is that our prison population does not reflect the population of Bermuda and that should tell all of us that something is wrong, not only in Bermuda, but elsewhere as well.”

    Why do you think that is? Is it something we should be looking to change (given the only way for that to happen is to increase the number of whites in prison)?

  104. @LF

    So my comment was ignored by you. The population does rep the islands population. What planet are you on? As I stated the island is made up of mostly black so to reason that on a mostly black island that there should be more whites in prison is again biased whishful thinking on your part. Now if you had stated or talked about unfair sentencing I would not have much to say as I do not no how Judges come up with the sentancing that they do as most time it seems to be up to them. And yes I to would have thought therapy would be needed for prisoners seems like a no brainer really. Mirrors helps prevent those who are just starting to get into trouble what about those who are repeat offenders?

    CDF

  105. “If a container of marijuana was sent to Bermuda Health Services, wouln’t you implicate the owner of the clinic as being involved? I’m being as objective as most people on this thread.”

    Not if he wasn’t found guilty by the police or the courts and did, in fact, help the investigation.

    And certainly not years after the fact…

  106. Casual Observer,

    Actually, those people who are most like to benefit from the Mirrors programme are the ones who have taken the opportunity to involve themselves in the programme. Have you ever been to a Mirrors graduation or watched one on CITV?

    The problem with young (and some not so young) black males that we’re having today is not unique to Bermuda. In fact, Dr. Mincy said he is interested in widening his scope because he sees the problem elsewhere, like in the Caribbean, the U.S. and London, and anywhere else there is a black population. From talking to people, I have been made to understand that this problem does not exist in Africa. Howwever, the African continent is experiencing other problems due to colonialism.

    Uncle Elvis,

    Dr. Brown was not found guilty by the police or the courts either, by many still accuse him of criminal behaviour – years after the “facts”.

  107. Laverne:
    I do not believe that the 3 strikes legislation would serve as a deterrent to serial offenders, unless of course the sentences came with compuslory therapy. Having worked for many years with those men (and) women who make up the prison population, I know that more than 3 strikes legislation is necessary. I do believe that the Mirrors programme will provide prevention and the cure of 3 strikes legislation won’t be necessary.

    Hi Laverne,
    While I don’t doubt that the Mirrors program is fantastic and will do great things for the future generations of Bermuda, it doesn’t help those repeat offenders that are over 18 years. What about the grown men out there committing crimes such as robbery and sexually assaulting children and women. These people need a three strike rule. They are the ones that did not get the help in time to prevent a life of crime.

  108. @ LVF – Actually yes.. I’ve both watched on TV and also attended the graduation on Saturday night. A cousin of mine completed the program.

    “Actually, those people who are most like to benefit from the Mirrors programme are the ones who have taken the opportunity to involve themselves in the programme.”

    Yes, one would have to register in order to be able to reap the benefit. What about those who will not or do not bother to register? I think a significant number of them would fall into the “high risk” category.

    Whilst I applaud the concept of the Mirrors program, it’s all good and well to do some serious self-reflection for a couple of weeks, but my only concern is that a lot of the children who successfully complete the program return to the same unhealthy environment with many of the same socioeconomic factors and undesireable elements.

    My cousin jumped up and down at the chance to attend (although I’m not sure how much of his enthusiasm had to do with getting out of school for a week). I have no doubt that he feels very much empowered. But he’s not the one running the streets, hanging with a bad crowd, skipping school/dropping out and I think he’d be hard-pressed to get his hands on a gun.

  109. Ahh, apparently the black male problem is widespread in Western society (excluding Europe) but the problem in Africa is due to Colonialism. Which countries would those be? It would seem in fact that many of the problems in Africa tend to be black on black tribal warfare.

    The BHC matter has been debated ad nauseum suffice to say based on reports the matter was never closed but it is somewhat mute now that the files have allegedly been mislaid (very convenient). Dr Brown was not found not guilty as he was never brought before the courts (police don’t find guilt). However unethical is just as capable of being corrupting in Public Office as is alleged corruption.

  110. Casual Observer,

    Hopefully those young people who take advantage of the programme learn the necessary skills to keep them “out of trouble”. Having worked with substance abusers I know that some get it the first time and some don’t. However, I know many people who thought there was no hope but are now living productive lives.

    I don’t think that there’s anymore that the Government can do other than to offer programmes for those in our community who are at risk.

    Robert Bryce,

    While I have not done any studies, I do believe that many of the problems in Africa, including “black on black tribal warfare” are the result of colonialism. However, that is my belief, and I have no facts or figures to back it up.

    I have never seen Dr. Brown practice any unethical conduct. But if you have, you can disclose it here if you like.
    My relationship with Dr. Brown is well known, we are relatives and friends, so I am biased and make no apologies. In addition to him being my cousin and friend, I also admire the man, as do many other Bermudians.

  111. “Dr. Brown was not found guilty by the police or the courts either, by many still accuse him of criminal behaviour – years after the “facts”.”

    I believe it was confirmed/described as unethical behaviour and if the relevant legislation had been updated to reflect modern best practices then a criminal case would have been forthcoming.

    Yet another example of heel dragging by the PLP when it comes to upgrading our legislation and legislative practices for fear of having to be held accountable to the electorate.

  112. 32n64w,

    Royal Gazette, November 14, 2007

    “However, Mr. Ratneser said during yesterday’s appeal proceedings: “The position is although the media have tried to make it out that there’s a lot of fraud that’s been done at the BHC, that’s not correct.”

    He said that although an allegation of widespread fraud will form part of Smith’s appeal: “There’s absolutely no evidence of that. There will be no evidence before Your Lordships. These statements are very, very dangerous.” “

  113. Ms Furbert,

    Why even try? It is pointless. The minds of many of these posters’ are completely made up that all things Dr Brown and most things PLP are corrupt, illegal, fraudulent and any other negative description possible.

  114. There are many diff types of voters. Traditional PLP voters/supporters dont even post on here. and those that are on here that have voted PLP largely voted on the premise that the UBP or the ‘establishment’ should be the default government, but that they would give the PLP a ‘chance’, but if they screw up, and lets hope they screw up, then we can go back to the status quo.

    So trying to convince many of the posters/bloggers of the positives of a PLP administration is a waste of energy by and large.

  115. Ken,

    I know what you mean. What amazes me is that no matter how a thread starts, it always ends up in criticism of Dr. Brown. The obsession that they have with Dr. Brown is startling.

    But then again, if you watch Fox News and read right wing blogs in the U.S. you hear the same thing, only difference is that the American are talking about Obama.

  116. As I have stated before if you can’t debate the issues do not get into politics. Ken you pack’n up?

    CDF

  117. Thats the thing EX PM, its not about the issues to many of you. Its all about personality and style.
    I cannot wait until October 2010 to see exactly how you guys handle the change of leadership and what exactly you use as your point of argument.

  118. ken, do you honestly believe that Ewart will step down? Or do you expect him to claim that a groundswell of support from within the party obligates him to stay on?

  119. @ Ken,

    We don’t know if Dr. Brown will be leaving or not. Their seems to be a campaign by a few to get him to stay. I know he said he would, but then again he also said ” we had to deceive you”.

  120. “I know what you mean. What amazes me is that no matter how a thread starts, it always ends up in criticism of Dr. Brown. The obsession that they have with Dr. Brown is startling.”

    The funny thing about it Laverne, is that you were the first one to mention Dr. Brown in this thread.

    “on November 21, 2009 at 2:14 pm LaVerne Furbert
    Ken,

    I agree whole heartedly with you. Even when you hear people calling the talk shows you know that the only reason they want the legislation is because they think they’re going to find out that the PLP really has had their fingers in the cookie jar. I think there will be a lost of disappointed people in Bermuda.

    Many Bermudians don’t realise how government works so that’s why they’re thinking like that. And if in fact, the PLP has had its fingers in the cookie, it will mean that some civil servants have had theirs in it as well.

    One of the things that Minister Cox did early in her tenure as Finance Minister is to make sure that an qualified accountant was assigned to each Ministry to ensure that procedures are carried out as they should be.

    I’m willing to bet that few people here are elsewhere have even looked at the legislation or how the Caymans handled it

    Some of these people are salivating thinking this will be it for catching Ewart Brown. Nothing happened”

    Personally I think you have more of an obsession with Dr. Brown than any poster on the world wide web…

  121. Its so amazing how these people who place party over country attempt to gloss over the total and absolute failure of this current administration with its absence of logic, common sense, basic brain power, and critical thinking when it comes to using the great wealth of this nation or former great wealth with the wasting of almost $200million) to fix the foundational core issues that have brought us to this point in our social erosion.

    perhaps when politicians get shot they will actually do something more constructive to reform this place so ALL BERMUDIANS can achieve the BERmudian dream .. instead of continuing the cycle of growth of the under class with people turning to crime to escape poverty.

    perhaps if the gangs went after the queen we would really get some results

    History will make note of your failure and no internet spin will reverse it.

    If this was any other place in the world…the people would have revolted by now

    brown sure aint no obama. even obama aint the same obama since hes now in the hot seat.

    the plp has had total control and given a mandate to reform this system back in 98…instead of making use of that political capital…..and doing the job the people hired them to fulfill…they have decided to stay the course of corruption and continue the bad work of the ubp

    Dr brown made a speech claiming hese not there to protect the status quo of old bermuda…..what specific legislative measures have this administration put in place to reform the core areas that create our social issues across the board?

    smoke n mirrors and we they youth see this very clearly
    Thats y theres an attitude of F U !!!

    so far u lot have only greased the palms of old retarded people who think they are getting something cause they dont have to pay lisence fees. these same old people are the largest voting block on island , this is why by buying their vote you all can secure their political loyality. amd most of these old people are uneducated, so to take advantage of them says a lot about your morals

    A pretty good trick..but dont forget…they r dying off fast so that trick wont work too much longer

    the plp stand now for protection of the status quo…..instead of representing labour they only represent the big money interests just like the previous administration.

    U LOT r Fulla Bull S>> IT

    ALL POWER TO THE PEOPLE BY ANY MEANS NESSIARY

    (EDITED for more dirty disgusting fowl launguage 🙂 )

  122. 9ps,

    Check out Bermuda Is Another World, and get back to me on people’s obsession with Dr. Brown. I’ve already admitted that I admire the man, like I admire Nelson Mandela, Barack Obama, Derrick Burgess, and all of the other black man in the world (including my two sons) who have had to put up with people like you, and still they rise.

    Sara, you are correct. There is a campaign going on encouraging Dr. Brown to stay on. I know you find it difficult to understand why some people admire him and are sorry that he will be relinquishing the leadership of the PLP and hence the country,but facts are facts.

  123. I believe it was teal. I was pleasantly surprised to see you out cheering and waving the Union Jack Laverne.

  124. We don’t know if Dr. Brown will be leaving or not. Their seems to be a campaign by a few to get him to stay. I know he said he would, but then again he also said ” we had to deceive you”.

    Sara, he’s also said we don’t know his real agenda.

  125. since the plp itsnt about what its name stands for any more and its members who back in the day used to spit on titles like DAME….and who all now take any and all titles from yea ole queenie its fitting that shes wearing plp green, it shows that she identifies with what the plp has become …good job queen n plp 🙂

    (edited for fowl language:)

  126. @ ken – No, actually we voted for CHANGE, not CHANCE… instead we’ve just gotten more of the same…

  127. It’s disheartening watching these discussions descend into each party standing in their respective corners, fingers in ears making noises so the other can’t hear.

    On the one side, we have Ken and Ms. Furbert – who believe that all criticism of the PLP is founded on an innate disrespect and distrust of black leadership, and therefore should be dismissed as racism.

    On the other side you have a host of posters who love to jump in and bring up half decade old issues and insinuations which they want to be true, but probably aren’t.

    And the country continues to get worse.

    The reason that some of us are trying to start a discussion with the more green-leaning is because we’re desperate to get recognition that something is going wrong, and that our leaders are not addressing it, they’re hiding behind their race and spin.

    Over the past 5 years Bermuda has gotten worse in just about every single measurable area. The only exception might be overall GDP, but given that we’ve just turned that into debt and there hasn’t been much trickle down affect it certainly hasn’t helped.

    But Dr. Brown will not admit that. He seems unable to admit personal fault. He has lied to the public several times, and then proudly trumpeted the fact as part of the greater good. He is the antithesis of a public servant.

    You want an example? How about using your 5 minutes of fame on the BBC to trumpet your own personal issues, rather than represent your country? I know you want independence Dr. Brown, I’d also like a gold-covered slide into a pool of champagne. But you work for us, and we don’t want it, so it’s not your job to parade around international news saying it’s on the agenda. It is OUR agenda, not YOURS.

    Dr. Brown is a strong man, a charismatic man, a man who, I honestly believe in good times could probably get a lot done. But he has wilted as a tourism minister, done nothing as a transportation minister and has overseen a sustained period of descent in all areas of our lives. I don’t care if he’s the next Cicero, evaluate him on performance, not rhetoric, and he fails. It’s that simple. It’s not race, it’s not his background, it’s not his attitude – it’s his performance and his inability to improve. And rather than coming back with your typical ‘well I know lots of people who support him’ response, why not come back and say why that is?

    Is it the improvement in income inequality?
    Is it the improvement in tourism?
    Is it the improvement in crime?
    Is it the improvement in race relations?
    Is it the improvement in education?
    Is it the improvement in national debt?
    Is it the improvement in our infrastructure?
    Is it the improvement of the retail sector?
    Is it the improvement in IB sentiment?

    Because I don’t get what is better now, other some people now have one of their friends in power, versus some other people having one of their friends in power.

  128. LIF,

    You do not want a discussion. What you want is for Ken and I to agree on everything that you say. That wont be happening as far as I’m concerned.

    I don’t think you will ever hear me or any other PLP supporter say that the PLP has done everything right under any of its three Premiers, however I do believe that the PLP has done some good in this country.

    As far as Dr. Brown goes and the areas you listed above – tourism, transportation, crime, race relations, etc. etc. etc., you know like a I know that Dr. Brown is not soley responsible for improving all of those things. But if you want to blame him, that’s your perogative.

    Ken was when he said “theminds of many of these posters’ are completely made up that all things Dr Brown and most things PLP are corrupt, illegal, fraudulent and any other negative description possible.”

  129. LiF – maybe PATI could provide answers. Oh back to the thread! I wonder if PATI will provide the answer as to why there have been so many Ministerial changes in Education, Environment, Sports, Health (apart from the untimely demise of Nelson Bascome) and others, but in more than 5 years there has been no change in Tourism or Transport despite the poor performance.

    I see Ms Furbert’s response to you is a true politician’s response – avoid the question and answer with what you want to say.

  130. CO,

    U may have, many didnt. U dont represent everyone in Bermuda…That is what is so funny. The 6 of you that blog on here daily, seem to really think you are representative of everyone in Bermuda. You really arent.

    Theodor,

    Go to the plp website and there are list of accomplishments. I am not gonna spend my time listing them 1 by 1 especially when you will just have reasons why they arent accomplishments to you.

  131. ken –

    I fully recognize that I don’t represent everyone in Bermuda… which is why when you try to paint with a broad brush and make sweeping statements like this one:

    “and those that are on here that have voted PLP largely voted on the premise that the UBP or the ‘establishment’ should be the default government, but that they would give the PLP a ‘chance’, but if they screw up, and lets hope they screw up, then we can go back to the status quo.”

    and this:

    “The UBP did say 3 strikes and your out, knowing full well that it would apply to young black males much more frequently that it would to their own children.”

    … I feel compelled to let you know that you cannot condense the thoughts and actions of a population of 65,000+ into neat little “them” and “us” anecdotes to try and support your position. There are 65,000+ independent-thinking Bermudians on this island who think, feel and do based on more than just the PLP this and the UBP that.

  132. @ ken –

    “U may have, many didnt. U dont represent everyone in Bermuda…That is what is so funny. The 6 of you that blog on here daily, seem to really think you are representative of everyone in Bermuda. You really arent.”

    That fact that you made a statement about those on here that voted for the PLP (when to my knowledge I’m the only individual on this thread that said that I voted for the PLP) led me to believe that you were addressing me. You then attempted to explain why I voted the way that I did insinuating that it was with the hope that the PLP would fail. That’s a twisted way of thinking when I paid my own way to travel home at election time and was partying outside Alaska Hall with the other revellers. To suggest that any of that was done in the hopes of the PLP failing couldn’t be further from reality and I take great offence to your suggestion that PLP voters in 1998 did so in the secret hope that the PLP would prove themselves incompetant.

  133. CO,

    there are many offensive statements to go around on these sites.

    I dont know what you guys want though. To listen to the moaning on here makes it sound like every single thing the PLP does is wrong and rooted in corruption and illegalities and that is not so. Every time I or Ms Furbert defend the party we are called blind supporters or basically defenders of the Brown regime, which I can unequivocally say i am not.

    Just now, we see”the truth’ whoever he/she is saying “CO, there can be no dissent. You either support the party unequivocally or you are to be crushed.” which is insane because I and Ms Furbert have quite often said that we dont agree with everything that has been done and that the PLP has made mistakes as well as achievements.

    So what do you want from us? Whatever it is that you want, I dont think we can give. So what is the point of the discussion?

    Perhaps if we leave the discussion then you all can have more fun Brown Bashing, PLP bashing, Bermuda bashing etc.

  134. What will the party do as more and more poeple start to question things this Government does especially when it does not come from the “usual posters” but grass roots supporters? Treat them as they have here? Democracy at it finest. The PLP seem to be the UBP to me I’m 31 and have tried to see the positive of this Government but the bad seems to out wiegh the good for me. It’s just a matter of forwad thinking and the racial stuff has had an effect on my willingness to hear them but at least I went to hear them first.

    CDF

  135. @ ken –

    The very fact that you resort to terms like “you all” and “you guys” etc is very much indicative of the fact that you view anybody who expresses any capacity for critical thinking (ie, not blindly following) in the same light.

    I can express that I have supported the PLP in the past, and in fact voted for them in the past. But again it is “you all”.

    Question: Who are “we guys” and “we all”? I’m curious as to who constitutes the “us” and “them” and why it is so important to lump individuals together? Any dissenters or critics of the present Government automatically get the label “you guys” which is why as somebody pointed out earlier in the thread, according to you the ‘combined oppostion’ now includes all of white Bermuda and a significant number of black Bermudians…

    When we can get past the “you guys” and “we guys” mentality then perhaps we can make some progress in OUR country. Until then it’s just more finger pointing and little cliques which is extremely counter-productive.

    Newsflash: There are a number of would-be PLP supporters and voters who are currently disillusioned. And that has nothing to do with wanting the PLP to fail. You seem unable to grasp the concept that criticism of the PLP does not automatically create an US and THEM (unless you are personally incapable of free thinking and are willing to follow blindly). You also seem unaware that creating such divisions actually further disillusions those individuals like myself who would gladly vote for the PLP if it’s leadership and members did not cast dispersions against those in the electorate capable of emitting registerable brainwaves.

  136. Wow…

    I find it amazing how these discussions always seem to go.

    The personal attacks, subject changes, deflections, misdirections…

    And people wonder why the PLP isn’t trusted when the mouthpieces can’t even stay on point and debate without making horrific, racist attacks when faced with even the slightest opposition.

    It really makes me sad that more PLP supporters don’t post on blogs and forums, as those that do, at this point, really make the party look bad.

  137. I just wanted to say that I’m real busy at the moment and haven’t had the time to go over all the above posts and have been emptying the spam filter only sporadically right now. I will go over the posts when I can and apologise for not being more active in this thread so far.

    I do hope though that everyone has sent in recommendations to the PATI address. I personally would like to see every PLP branch discussing things like this and collectively writing in their recommendations/constructive criticism. Similarly every union division and workplace should be pro-active in reading through such documents and providing their input when opportunities like this arise.

  138. Ken,

    I think that the majority of posters here would prefer that we follow the lead of the posters on BIAW and Bermuda Sucks. Remember that saying, “if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”. They’ve rewritten and the saying should now read “if you can’t post anything bad (about Dr. Brown, the PLP, etc.) don’t post at all.

  139. I missed the part where people were saying not to post, or “don’t say anything at all”…

    From what it looks like, it appears that people are asking for some honesty and an end to the little games…

  140. I disagree. They’re entitled to their views and arguments. I just wish they’d stop whining that everyone but they are partisan and irrational.

  141. That’s kinda what I meant by “honesty”.

    These sorts of personal attacks don’t move the discussion forward.

  142. 6. Do you know any examples of Howard alumni given contracts?

    Laverne – was Don Coleman at Howard? If not it shows the PLP is an equal opportunity giver of no bid/tender contracts that reward failure and incompetence with a harsh system of further contracts and unaccountable payments.

  143. I have been at Gitmo for a week. Same crap being spewed here by LaVerne and the Marxist.

    ‘Avenue’. Well, you give them one. Sorta like a PLP Marxist vending stand. Stalin and a few deceased PLP/BIU members are laughing………………..

    Whats your name girly? My name is LaVerne Furbert…..”So whats your dream?” I…I I want too be like the Black Berets.

    “What are you going to print and sing for us today?”

    “Well…It ain’t over till the….lady …….”

    How much they paying you LaVerne?

  144. If anyone who believes in democracy and truth has any doubts as to why PATI is required (not just in Bermuda) and be retroactive you should follow the enquiry into the background to the Iraq invasion presently taking place in the UK. The Daily Mail has very good reporting. Prior to invading, Tony Blair is advised in writing it is illegal, but covers up, withholding the information from Cabinet and only tells a few cronies (sound familiar?). This memo has just now been released to the enquiry and it will be interesting to see the repurcussions.
    Governments have to be held accountable to act in the peoples’ collective interest, and not their own personal agenda, or to please some entity, in Blair’s case the USA.

  145. Welcome too 10/10/10…….

    Warranties and garuntees…not included.

    Onions will never learn. We’ve gone too seed and it’s being sold to others……………………

  146. ‘The Premier would have the power to exclude any public authority from freedom of information without the approval of MPs under a proposed new law.’

    And not a peep from Ken or LF about it. If they are still debating the issues what is their take on this.

    CDF

  147. Surely the draft was deliberately drafted to have many issue that needed to be changed. Why? It is legislation that the Premier doesn’t want, but there is legislation he does – the Gaming Bill. The quid pro quo will be changes to PATI in exchange for passing the Gaming Bill. Anyone seen the Gaming Report paid for by the taxpayer? Not a peep. Next will be the draft “new” Gaming Bill so that the public can comment. It is well known the Premier wants to bring in gaming – probably has the gambling licenses all allocated and ready to go. First location the Brown Casino in Dockyard to serve the new mega yacht marina. Sounds just like the repeat of the Swan/McDonalds situation. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

  148. I think 400 of those were from the same address, written in green ink and signed by a vocal PLPer [personal attack edited out].

    They were generally pretty positive.

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