The Violence At Cupmatch

Personally I was quite disappointed to read about the violence that broke out at Cupmatch. Of all the social events in our community calendar, one would have hoped that Cupmatch would be regarded as to sacred to disrupt by such folly.

Personally, I have no idea what kicked off this bit of fighting. It seems as if it started in the bar and then spilled out into the public areas. Reading that it seems likely that some fools got a bit too hot on rum and beer and this contributed to what may have been some words into a full out brawl.

Stupidness. Lets be clear, on all accounts this Cupmatch was shaping up to be one of the best ever, which makes this brawl all the more something to condemn.

I do not pretend to have the answers for how to deal with these social problems that this brawl illustrates. I do know that there are a number of community initiatives that are and could be done to provide alternatives and to intervene before the situation gets out of hand like it did on Friday. There is certainly more that can be done in these areas, and dealing with the related issues of drug and alcohol abuse.

I wonder if it is time that the community started to intervene more directly when these things break out. And by that I mean people shake off the idea that the fight is someone else’s business and its best to just get out of the way. Maybe a bunch of spectators joining up and disarming these perps is too idealistic, but the way I see it this violence isn’t someone else’s business. Its ours, all of ours. These byes aren’t some fools from overseas coming to our events and getting smashed and stupid. These are our people. And their violence is as much a violence against our community as it is against themselves. We may loose and get hurt by intervening, but we loose and get hurt by not intervening.

Of course I’m not calling for people to walk into the line of fire and get shot or stabbed. But there is certainly a lot that we can do when these situations break out than merely standing by haplessly.

And as much as I am all about rehabilitation over punishment, and innocent until proven guilty, I really do get irate when I see these fools in the paper acting as if they are sudden celebs. Its almost enough to get me looking for some rotten fruit to throw at them. Surely that would be a more appropriate message for the photos?

As I said, I don’t pretend to have the answers. I do feel that draconian punishment and Taliban like Christian fundamentalism is not the answer though, and that we should focus more on building community and dealing with the social problems. But thats just me.

Anyone got some ideas?


82 thoughts on “The Violence At Cupmatch

  1. Some phone cam’ footage:

    I have to say that this incident certainly didn’t spoil Cup Match for me, and it looks like the Police Service and Security were on the ball and sorted this out quite quickly.

  2. Someone else thought differently. I guess we all interpret something differently.

    Posted by: Michael Smith

    This incident was not as “minor” as is being portrayed by the police to the press. It is amazing to me that no-one was seriously injured as, upon leaving the grounds, glass was literally raining down on people. One man with a child in a pushchair was caught right in the centre of this “battle zone” and, like everyone, had to run for cover. And what was even more astonishing was the number of policemen, dressed in their kevlar armour, who did absolutely nothing to help, standing by as though they didnt know what to do. No-on’e in the area felt safe. And I do not believe that the car searches which occurred afterwards were unrelated. Something isn’t being said. And our police service desperatley needs better training.

  3. “Its ours, all of ours…”

    Why? Why should something become my business. I don’t want ownership of something so distasteful thankyou.

    They do what they do without any regards for the wider community, yet we should say it’s all ours? Why are they entitled to make you feel irate? They are not.

    If I took ownership of every clueless lump that got pissed or brain dead from drugs, I would have about 10 hours a week for the things I do want to take ownership of.

    Man doesn’t really change in many respects. I know that this doesn’t equate to school fights, but I had fights at school – maybe you did. I knew it wasn’t right – but it still happenend.

    Then I matured and accepted that if I wanted to be part of main stream society, then fighting was off the agenda. Alcohol abuse, drug abuse – off the agenda.

    These people didn’t mature. They had, and still have, a choice; either join main stream society and sign up for the rules – or don’t. If you don’t sign up, then we (the rest of society) doesn’t want you). Go away – prison temporarily, your own island, somewhere – but go away!

    Don’t give me your problem to sort out. Sort it yourself. You are accountable.

    Happy (as always) to be shown the light so to speak, but I can’t see what you can do to aid the process of maturing for these guys.

  4. Thanks Adjustah. Been there done that. As can be seen by the crowds actions, people are tired of it and as usual did not get involved.

    Great job guys. Take balls and tits to get into this madness.

    El Rummo………

  5. Hi Martin, perhaps we have fundamentally different approaches here? To me these youths are my fellow Bermudians. They may very well operate in a Bermuda foreign to my own, but they are still Bermudians, and they still affect my Bermuda and everyone elses Bermuda. If I keep turning a blind eye to this, is this not the same as that quote often bandied around the Bermuda blogs and LTTE about what happens when good people do nothing in the face of evil? While this is more frequently applied to our political leaders, I feel it is more apt for situations as this. If no one intervenes, either directly in stopping this violence or indirectly in preventing things getting this far in the first place, the future is increasing frequency and desensitisation to this violence.

    It is our problem. These people are our people. This is our society. If we ignore this problem we allow it to fester and increasingly infect our society and the next generations.

    As you know I am currently overseas studying. Part of this involves me living in a dorm with nine other people. Somehow, and those who worked with me before (and especially my wife) are totally surprised at this, but in this flat I am the clean freak. And thats saying something about the mess these byes make. Now, I’m not the one who left that pot of rice or curry sitting out on the counter for two weeks, but I sure the heck am affected by it. The longer it sits there the more it affects me, even though I am not to blame for it directly. But the longer its there, festering away, without my speaking up and getting it sorted, the more I too am accountable. Thankfully I’ve had words, and while its not perfect, we don’t have curry or pots of rice sitting around for longer than 48hrs before people get the message and sort it before I sort them. It may not be the best parable for this situation, but I hope you get my sentiments.

  6. Hi Jonathan,

    I do get your sentiments, not a problem.

    I fully understand the ‘prevention of things getting this far’. That comes back to family cohesion, a sound basic set of values and a community that “will not accept” intolerable behaviour. Getting them young if you like.

    I did the student bit (sadly in the days of black & white – lol) so I know what you are saying about the curry.

    Maybe we dealt with it differently in our flat of four people. We threw the offender out after the appropriate warnings.

    The real difficulty I have is taking over someone else’s accountability.

    There are too many people in this world who don’t want to be accountable. This isn’t the thread perhaps, but somewhere along the way we went – well – soft. We continue to find excuses why something is acceptable or we mitigate the situation, instead of simply saying – it IS NOT acceptable in a fairly loud voice.

    Every day, we see court reports where lawyers say such wonderful things as “this is his first offence, your Honour” – “he had a difficuly childhood”. Well – in some ways, my childhood was difficult but I had to make a choice – go mainstream or not.

    Life is about choices, and the basic ones like how to behave are not affected by economics or upbriging. Imho.

    Also, the child at school who can no longer “fail” because it’s unsupportive or not fashionable. Wow – what a shock he/she has coming out in the big wide world!


  7. I just love the picture of that helmeted policeman with a giant shield in the Bermuda Sun online.

    That shows total control does it not? I mean, look at that dude. Arnold Swartsnagaboo…..

    It’s great for a headline but the dude did’nt turn up until after the average everyday policeman had suppressed and arrested the culprits.

    Whats my point? Look at the picture presented on the site that I saw and tell me if that is what you saw as an attendee.

    Gonna email George Jackson and tell him forget the paperwork. Those Ladies and Gentlemen in uniform deserve a Commendation by the end of next week for taking control of a situation that could have escallated into something uncontrollable. My helmets off too them.

    The guys with the guns and shields did a great job. The peoples I mentioned did a service that very few would dare enter into.

    Once again, Adjustah, thanks. Renewed again my faith in the men and women that serve us.


  8. Jonathan,

    I think that why we have the “Mirrors” programme. However, you can take a horse to the water, but you can’t make him drink. There are many, many, many programmes in the Bermuda community that if used by young people and their parents that help arrest the problem and “keep them on the straight and narrow”. But as I see it, some people prefer not to take advantage of what’s out there.

  9. If they are convicted of crimes I believe they do just that for the period of their incarceration in that they are not allowed to vote.

  10. well until this country fixes the roots of these social issues…stuff like this and worse will continue to happen……this is the tip of the plp ice berg… legacy of failure when it comes to fixing the social issues

    keep it up gangbangers…..make them pay for their lack of vision

    may your actions of social unrest and civil disobedience grow and continue until the people wake up and force the govenor to fix the problems that create gangs….since the local politicians are so corrupt and unqualified to fix the root issues.

  11. The obvious solution is banning alcohol at Cup Match. Unfortunately, the good must suffer with the bad, but obviously the community needs some “shock therapy”.

  12. I guess you could at least try to ban sale of alcohol in glass bottles, but one of the traditions of Cup Match is each ‘camp’ bringing in their coolers stocked with beer and other liquor and everyone having a ‘merry old time’. People may revolt if alcohol period is banned from the grounds.

    Like Jonathan said, this may have started out as a regular bar fight and not necessarily a premeditated assault on someone – although as the guy who posted a response on the Bermdua Sun article said, if the security response was slow in forming then that is something that needs to be addressed better.

  13. “If they are convicted of crimes I believe they do just that for the period of their incarceration in that they are not allowed to vote.”

    No I mean when they get out, they have to leave.

  14. No, I think that is unfair. If they have served their time they can go back to being citizens. And where exactly would they go? Perhaps that can work with individuals with dual citizenship, but even then, if they have done their time then I have no problem with them returning to civilian life.

  15. According to the Gazette report today it was up to 30 people involved in the altercation? Never mind my previous statement then. Other questions need to be asked then, including one for how 6 arrests were for possession of controlled drugs when I believe they still use the security screening at the club grounds’ entry points.

  16. “….how 6 arrests were for possession of controlled drugs when I believe they still use the security screening at the club grounds’ entry points”.

    Understand the question and the fact that it needs to be asked, but it’s a bit like asking how drugs get into the prison system I would have thought.

  17. Hi J Galt, I thought the answer to that question was implied in my answer. If they commit a crime then they temporarily loose their citizen rights (vote) until they have served their time and been cleared to return to civilian life. That is fair. You are essentially arguing that people are unable to develop and condemning them for all eternity – which I find unfair.

    Why do you think it is fair to strip them of their citizenship permanently?

  18. Condemning them for all eternity? We have laws when people break the law, we have punishments, all I am suggesting is one of the punishments for certain crimes should be that your citizenship be revoked.

    “Based on analysis for the last four years in Bermuda, you have ten individuals who’ve been arrested 30 times or more.”

    “There are 210 who have ten arrests or more and 1500 have three arrests or more.” (from 21 square)

    I think it is unfair for good citizens, to have to wait for these individuals to develop.

    If you prefer the carrot to the stick, we could strip everyone of citizenship and have people earn it. Say for instance don’t get arrested 10 times in 4 years and you can stay. 😉

  19. Peeps,

    I know this is WAYYYY off topic, but I need to know the answer to a couple of questions. 1) Are parts of the Harrington Sound bottomless? 2) Is Harrington Sound actually the mouth of the volcano that created Bermuda?

  20. Hi Justin, I’ll do my best:

    Harrington sound is not bottomless and nor is it the mouth of the volcano.

    Bermuda as a whole sits on the rim of the volcano. Volcanic rock is actually very deeply buried underneath a significant cap of limestone, however it is possible I believe to find some volcanic rock at Whalebone bay up Ferryreach, but I’ve never found any myself.

    Harrington Sound was a peat marsh which has since been flooded (incidentally the original entrance to H. Sound was not Flatt’s Inlet but a now extinct inlet from Shelly Bay). It is certainly very deep in places, but not bottomless. However as you descend the water becomes very cloudy with sediment which makes it hard to see the bottom, and one can even get confused about which way is up. Also, the bottom of the sound is a very soft sediment/mud, and this (combined with the sediment clouds) can mess up depth readings such as sonar and plumblines. It is most certainly not bottomless or hits the volcanic rock.

  21. The Wikipedia information on Harrington Sound is incorrect. The Aquarium has the more accurate and recent analysis of the sound (of which I have paraphrased above).

  22. The deepest part of the sound is near Shark Hole Hill. Just north of the beach house at Shelly Bay is where water flowed many years ago and is now marsh land. There is a tunnel/cave that runs from near the AME Church into Harrington Sound that is now blocked. Giant Tarpon can still be found on occassion but not too often.

    Maybe the cave can be used to detain Cup Match violence which will continue as long as people turn their heads.

  23. What Jon has said is correct about Harrington Sound. The closest that the volcano is to the surface limestone rock is actually under Castle Harbour, not Harrington Sound. It would be pretty difficult after the millennia that have passed to ascertain where the mouth of the volcano actually was. Particularly after erosion and deposition. As for very deep, 180 feet is certainly very deep for an inland sound.

    Prior to the peat marsh of Harrington Sound (approx 15,000 BC), there is some evidence that the sound might have been a cave eroded by rainwater, that collapsed. This is inconclusive at present.

  24. Perhaps Ren Man you would like to start a thread about how and why the tidal flow through Flatts Inlet is so pronounced.

  25. so some are thinking that by giving up our civil liberties and constitutional rights by giving cops more search powers without warrents = the cure to the new “crime wave”.

    It appears we are becomming as paraniod as the americans now in their over reaction to 911 via the patriot act…over a few so called thugs.

    the down side is legislation here is being rushed through and a further expansion of the existing poliece state in bda…all over a minority of people who could easily be dealt with if the cops did their jobs within their previous powers.

    no real opposition debate…no debate from the legal sector who defend accused individuals… public awareness of what these new police powers actually mean…and no reform in the complaints review board to take that body out of the police hands.

    and no protection of citizens with these new powers……in the uk….cops who use any extended search powers, by law….have video rolling during any searches.

  26. Oh Blacky…I can call you Blacky right? Think about what you just wrote in your first sentence.

    What “civil liberties” are you giving up? Come on man…it’s either legal or illegal.

    Your last paragraph sums up your thoughts quite well. Your misinformed or don’t understand what is going on. Are you sure your living in Bermuda?

    Just a question. When was the last time you were asked by the police to offer your name or information?

    If you ain’t dun dee cryme you won’t do the time. Then again, as we know many have been convicted yet were innocent. But thats another thread. It’s the system, it works well but there are flaws.

    Another topic……

  27. Black Press,

    The new PACE legislation is taken directly from the UK’s version. Criteria for site searches are actually much more stringent now than before. Warrants can only be issued by magistrates, no longer JPs. If anything, there will be vastly fewer searches.

    Body searches are still mostly under the misuse of drugs act. Plenty of us have been searched under that one.

    It’s the height of hyperbole to call Bermuda a police state. You can request counsel or a doctor when you are being searched, IIRC. The video evidence is coming, it’s already in place at the stations for interviews.

    Perhaps you should read up on PACE before making the accusations.

  28. Hi Ren Man

    Not in a position to contradict, but I did hear that the new arrangements will also give the Senior Police Officer available the ability to approve a search on request from a lower ranking officer.

    It doesn’t, of course, negate the officers responsibility to explain in court his reasons for requesting the search.

  29. Martin, …a search warrant can be issued/authorised by anyone above the rank of Superintendant. The Super has to have reasonable grounds et al. It’s on the books.

    Why you guys want to change or even fathom it. It’s there.

    Criminal Code …101…………………

    Follies on East Broadway…………………….Put up or shut up or once again, silence the rummy, the guy on the street, your neighbour..oh well…………cop metch muss bee owah..

  30. lol @ blacky…b careful rummy some 1 in here may call u a racist for saying that…lol

    …how am i mis informed if im quoting directly from police press statements on tv? they were quoting directly from the legislation that provides them with these new expanded powers without any warrants

    the civil liberties bermuda has given up without even a whisper or question are freedom of movement, as far as these expanded searches without warrants or cause on the roads

    are we under martial law cause of a few gun wielding youths?

    and entering peoples homes without warrants or cause. this isn’t a communist nation.

    as these new search powers are now…no warrants are required……these cops here don’t have the proper training to be allowed this “god like power” some think their gods now without these new powers.

    actually rummy a few weeks ago the cops took me in some bullsh** warrants based on someone falsely using my name in traffic offences.

    they tried to take my dna…they tried to convince me that it was now a law that all people brought in to hamilton station are required to give dna…..they even had it posted on a sign.

    no such law exists…dna is only manditory in assault type offences.

    (Side Note)
    the conditions in the cells was worst that a movie sceen from a prisoner or war movie and on par with third world nations…blood stains on the walls…toilets uncleaned and covered with all types of layers of human waste..roaches crawling our of that dirty toilet all over the cell…absolutly disgusting.

    no accountability from anyone on the piss poor cell conditions…..dogs are treated better.

    that’s just one example of abuses goin on with this pace stuff

    ren man…..

    bda has the highest ratio of cops to people in the world on a sq mile basis…..that alone makes it a police state. add closed circut tv monitoring ..makes that statement more valid

    these new powers only enhance that fact further

    in the uk …they didn’t roll out parts of pace it was all done at one time was it not?…ie… police powers given while citizens protection or rights etc measures were also set up….ie video.

    video needs to be in all police vehicles and in cycle cops helmets to keep them honest while they perform their duties.

    as it has been for some time…the few dirty cops here have gotten away with a lot of abuse of people while being caught or in custody….and the protections afforded to the people in the uk under pace should be available to all here.

    the uk didn’t set up pace like they are doing it here….did they?

    this is why the uk needs to take over here and put in place reforms correctly. and broadly

    basically if the cricket club had proper security this would not have happened…..they were more focused on makin money that looking out for security issues and being proactive…ie…raise the drinking age…no glass cups or bottles….electronic scan upon entering field etc.

  31. Martin & Rummy,

    For warrants for searching a premises or for information retrieval, the senior officer has to be an inspector or above, and he does have to approve the request, but all warrants must now come from a magistrate. There are also now hearings in magistrates for for the issuance of said warrants.

    PACE has made some welcome changes.

    Searching of a PERSON is entirely different, and is covered under both the misuse of drugs act and the prohibition of concealed weapons.

    I would suggest that you contact the BPS directly for any questions you might have about PACE, as I have basically said all I can in this context. Suffice to say, there have been many changes since Rummy retired.

    The Flatts tide would have been a shorter piece to describe.

  32. Black Press,

    I think you may have misheard what they said on TV. If anything, PACE forces the BPS to be more accountable for their actions. It doesn’t give them more freedom, it gives them less. All requests must be validated. There’s no more calling up any JP to get a warrant, all requests must go before sitting judges.

    Where it does make things easier for the BPS is with personnel specifically dedicated to the process. There’s no longer the buck-passing from person to person to get answers.

    If Bermuda is a police state, you should see London, or Monaco, for that example.

    As for that sign at Hamilton Police Station, that needs to be reported. You are correct that DNA sampling is only for assault cases. I hope you got the officers’ numbers, because they should be disciplined.

    That’s the UK stuff. Ours is virtually identical.

  33. Well aware of all the changes Ren Man. Just wanted to see if you could still shoot the ducks in a row.
    Since you know it all why should we/I even bother contributing.

    Then again, it’s your show as it is ‘elswhere’…

    Amazing, same no faces, same rhetoric, same ole same ole. Fairylands…….BBS…..same ole…………Robin Hood…..Sher…..

    Retired? The law is still the same, just gives ‘you’ a little more leeway.

    Gotta run……Pc543 chasing me with a JP trying to right a warrant for spitting gum on front street………………

    Gotta love this place.

  34. And people wonder why more Bermudians don’t go to Cupmatch.
    This is a good example of why people decide to leave the island for a vacation instead of sticking around the island for the holiday.

  35. Sara,

    Many Bermudians still go to Cup Match each year. For as long as I can remember, some people choose to go away for the holiday, but many more stay here and go to the game, while others camp or picnic. I don’t see that changing in the near future.

  36. sara,
    i think you are mistaken. i dont have scientific numbers but this year and last year it seemed to me to be a lot more people. attendance doesnt seem to be dwindling.

    more of an impact generally is how the game is progressing and not any impact of violence. if there is a likelihood of a result then more people tend to come out as the 2nd day progresses.

    yes violence has the tendency to mar the game and the atmosphere, and that is unfortunate, however the disparity as to who attends cup match and in what numbers has been around for years and years.

  37. well until this country fixes the roots of these social issues…stuff like this and worse will continue to happen……this is the tip of the plp ice berg… legacy of failure when it comes to fixing the social issues

    keep it up gangbangers…..make them pay for their lack of vision

    may your actions of social unrest and civil disobedience grow and continue until the people wake up and force the govenor to fix the problems that create gangs in this community.….since the local politicians are so corrupt and unqualified to fix the root issues.

    solutions u ask 4?

    housing under 200k and lower

    fix economic divide….parents will be in the more latch key children

    manditory parenting education cources for all new and or young parents…this can break destructive cycles thats are a part of many peoples lives by fixing the family structure.

    reform the employment act to provide more than bare minimum protection to the workers…manditory over time….minimum wage….government regulated wages in all jobs

    equal distribution of the percapita income to all born bermudians.

    reform education system from the ground up to instill multicultural education in all schools public n private

    this will improve self esteem amongs black youth….dig up the roots of eurocentric education dominance…and go a long way to end the legance of white supremacy tought to white kids via the eurocentric education system by putting all races global contributions on the table.

    REAL CAREER OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUNG BERMUDIANS IN ALL FIELDS…..until this country provides equal opportunity for all to achieve, and the means to reach whatever objective they want and be well paid….no gang banger will put down the gun.

    LOIS Brown evans daughter Nadine…said at a public forum a while back that if theres no other alternative put in place for people to make a good living here…the gang problems will not be solved.

    And of course for all u punishment people who think thats the only way…yes increase jail terms etc for gun and any other forms of serious violence….with the ability to transport criminals off island to harder jails….or u can keep em here locally but there HAS to be meaningful reforms to the reform process in the prisons to close the revolving door….other wise its all a crappy and expensive joke

    but all this has been said b4…..long b4 gangs and guns

    the older people in bermuda were not proactive to prevent the current social problems….the politicians of the day didnt listen to the minority of the bermudian people who were warning of the approaching social problems were not proactive….now the community is reaping the results…..

    2009…same ole game….minority of the people with solid suggestions to improve this community are ignored …. the people as a whole who are slightly more proactive now… are still ignored by politicians…..gangs n guns are here now……and once again the next generation of people with social issues WILL step things up to the next level

    no ones interested in real solutions, if they were, the very basic points of systemic reform would have been done by now….

    perhaps some politicians need to get shot….then i bet solutions will be implimented to stop the generational cycle.

    this countrys mental retardation when it comes to systemic reforms is really sad.

    the negative activity is simply our own fault as a country…cause of the money focus….money for the few.

  38. sara,

    you cant possibly be condoning the statement by black press that

    “perhaps some politicians need to get shot….then i bet solutions will be implimented to stop the generational cycle.”

  39. Everything but that!
    I am sure when he says that he is just trying to get a rise and perhaps make people finally start to pay attention. It is sad that someone has to right such dramatic stuff in order to have their voice heard. The bigger question here is why such dissatisfaction with the PLP? Simple answer, because they are not doing enough to help the community. Besides the nonsense about shooting politicians, his suggestions are right on.

  40. actually sara that comment….

    “perhaps some politicians need to get shot….then i bet solutions will be implimented to stop the generational cycle”

    while disturbing for some of the readers here (who I classify as middle class to upper middle class…IE some what economically well off)……is the feeling of a large number of people in the grass roots community.

    So while many here find that comment distasteful…many in the wider community have figured out that its the political system and the politicians that are at fault.

    *Mod: Edited to remove sentences not required for the tone of the conversation. Please refrain from any personal attacks or threats. We encourage healthy debate but the removed bits do not meet the needs and substance of the debate in its current state.*

  41. Sara,

    Maybe you and “black press” can get together and start that third party that both of you think is so necessary.

    As far as “dissatification” with the PLP, who else is dissatisfied with the PLP other than you and him?

    As far as his “suggestions”, as I said before, why don’t they two of you hook up and start that third party. You’re obnviously dissatisfied with the PLP and he’s disatisfied, so that’s two people. See if you can get others to join you.

  42. what personal attack…..the sentence you removed called no names….. i may as well be trying to post on the plp blog if you gonna censor in such a manner.

    wa kinda bull is this?!!? wheres the freedom of speech?

    looks like your lettin your party affiliation get in the way of free speech…bad enough free speech is limited in bermuda…now its gettin limited online now? wtf?

    how about you take my suggestions to your plp inner sanctum where only those who pay to play can speak and give input to the forward progression of bermuda furbert.

    im not gonna hold my breath ms furbert cause @ tha end of tha day the plp is not better that the ubp and people like you are the very reason why the movement to ban party politics in bermuda is going to take hold…f a third party and f all the existing political parties… 🙂

    *Mod (Edited to add only): I only deleted those words that were implicitly a threat. If you feel that is unfair, I am sorry but the moderation policy is stated on the Moderation page. This is a blog centering on discussion of ideas for the betterment of Bermuda and as mod, I simply don’t don’t feel that threats, while not personal to a person but instead to a group of people, help in any manner.

  43. and this is where theres a fundamental difference between arm chair revolutionaries and street revolutionaries

    lets not be mistaken systemic reform out of the westminster system in bermuda is basically revolution

    revolution comes in peaceful forms…waisting time beggin politicians to make reforms…marches….petetitions …etc

    and when peaceful means dont work…..violent revolution takes its place.

    Ghandi while promoting peace ….had a violent alternative

    so did malcom x…and other revolutionaries…

    when these so called gang bangers figure out that they r wasting their bullets on their peers and start pointing their guns in the direction of those who are truly responsible for mismanagement of this system and resulting the social issues….thats grass roots revolution!

    While people who participate in your forum are forced to observe your rules……your rules dont reflect the reality of revolution.

    we that use the black press name will curb our revolutionary perspective for the sake of thoese who are not ready to handle that…..however….these perspectives do exist in bermuda……so it behooves u arm chair revolutionaries….make the peaceful revolution work much faster….other wise…the violent alternative is lurking….real talk!

    keep if real catch a fire

  44. Don’t worry Black Press the owner sent me an email the other day when I questioned him about why my post was not posted. He did reply and say it was “Obscene”. He later saaid it should have read “Offensive”.

    Well apparently there definately a double standard by just reading the above. He told me I used “swear words”, nothing “Obscene”…

    But hang in there. If can he throw tomato’s at Her Majesty and want to ‘ugrade’ too a cricket ball, don’t go out for a drink with John.

    A great day too all…….

    Gotta run….Tomato’s on sale……buy three pounds and get an MP free………………………………….

  45. Sara,

    to be honest this blanket dissatisfaction that you and black press speak of is not as widespread as you may think.

    this PLP government has done much for the community, ALL sectors of the community.

    can more be done? of course.
    have there been missteps? of course.
    could priorities have been different at certain times? possibly.

    but to try and cast the sentiment that the PLP has done nothing for the community is misleading and shows that the bias that you hold against the PLP is clouding your judgment.

    you dont have to support the PLP, like the PLP or vote PLP, but you have to give credit for the work that has been done. similarly, i dont support the UBP, like the UBP or vote UBP but i do believe that under the UBP government they did do some positive things.

    trying to imply that all was perfect before 1998 and all has gone to hell since then, and it is all the fault if the PLP is disingenuous at best.

  46. Hi Rummy and Black Press, please reread the moderating Policy – all actions have been taken in accordance with that. Obscene language is just that – swear words by another name, as well as hate speech. Personal attacks is just that as well, and includes inciting the assasination of named persons. The filter catches some of these words, but sometimes they slip by and are not immediately manually adjusted, and sometimes I miss them as well.

    Rummy, I think you are confusing threads, please do not misrepresent my position on the monarchy as a condoning of throwing anything at Mrs. Windsor, aka, the Queen of England. There appears to be enough confusion resulting from my position on the monarchy as it is without such misrepresentations.

    Black Press, there are many different types of revolution, and I am sure you are familiar with Fanon’s interpretation of ‘violence’. I personally believe that a means determines ends, not ends justify the means. Victory solely by the barrel of a gun will mean rule by the barrel of the gun, and as I aim for a non-coercive society, I hardly see how that is an end I would support. Don’t mistake that as a purely pacifist perspective; while I believe the initial stage of the revo can be peaceful (and the entire revo at that) I fully expect (and would be a fool not to) counter-revolution to reassert the old system through violence, and am fully in defence of self-defence.

  47. Hi Ken

    Rather than get into a “yes we did – no you didn’t” scenario (so typical of blogs), can you give a few examples of how the PLP has empowered black people – for example.

    We had the Premier’s conversation with the BBC Correspondent some time ago, where essentially he was suggesting it’s time to look after black people. Whites had 95% of the wealth – etc, etc.

    In the last few days (Letter to Ed), Dr Hodgson said:

    “This Government must find some way to direct the same kind of capital funds towards the black economy that it has directed towards white businesses and the black American economy”.

    It’s coming up to 11 years in power Ken. When Ken is it going to happen?

  48. Martin,

    I think the PLP has made great strides by introducing the EEZ and special concessions to entrepreneurs in small business.

    I think the free daycare, free tuition at Bda COllege, free public transportation for students all empower not only black bermudians but all bermudians.

    i think the Mirrors program is a wonderful initiative that is helping the black community.

    these are all programs and benefits available to the broader community, however if we are being frank we know that they affect the black community in a greater percentage.

    if the PLP was to put forward legislation that was “black specified” then they would be considered racist, or to some of you, more racist.

    i ask you, what would you like to see the government do for black Bermuda that they haven’t done?

  49. Hello Ken

    Thanks for that.

    I am being a little bit sneaky in a way. You see, you responded to Sara’s point by suggesting that the dissatisfaction is ‘not as widespread as you think it is’.

    That’s your view, to which you are entiled. Just as Sara is entitled to hers.

    What it really comes down to though, is ‘perception’. Perception can help – it can hinder. Now, I’m not going to say, I have lots of black friends, I don’t. But – those I do have together with other blacks I know and relate to on a daily basis (landlord etc), had a perception that with the PLP coming to power in 98, life was going to change for the betterment of blacks.

    As you rightly point out, in some ways – it has.

    But these same people also have a perception that it hasn’t changed enough and (worse perhaps) the PLP ‘appears’ to have abandoned Joe Public, the man in the street.

    And, I am not talking about those at the extremes here. Just day to day guys and girls who thought they would get a better shake in life.

    Going back to Dr Hodgson, she too (in a specific sense) appears to have a perception that you aren’t doing enough – hence the call to put capital into the black economy.

    I don’t know where your thoughts on the level of dissatisfaction come from; polling the public, branch meetings – wherever. Walk the streets Ken and ask the question.

  50. I think Ken needs to sit down with Ms Battersbee. Apparently her view and information varies from his, and/or anyone else for that matter.

  51. Well, as the discussion has come here now (bizarrely hopping from the other thread) I’ll repost my question to Ms. Furbert to Ken instead:

    Rather than judging the PLP on programs themselves, why not judge them on what they are supposed to affect. Ie, you cite the EEZ and the special concessions – back that up. Governing a country isn’t about coming up with flashy programs, it’s about improving the country. If a program such as the EEZ has successfully increased a metric such as, I dunno, revenues of black owned businses in Hamilton, or something like that, then fine.

    But just citing programs alone isn’t helpful. Maybe free day care, bus, college and so forth are nice for those being given the freebies, but if their overall affect on the Bermudian economy is negative, then they’re not good programs, no matter how nice they sound. And given the trebling of debt over the PLP’s administration, it seems to me that their focus is very much on nice-sounding, rather than ‘value for money’.

    What makes the whole picture look worse is if you introduce other aspects of governing into the evaluation:
    Crime (up across the baord); tourism (down relative to our Caribbean competitors, and historically); IB (check Bermudian employee figures..scary) and so forth.

    Of course, I could provide a much simpler response. Isn’t Dr. Brown’s satisfaction rating at below 25%?

  52. Martin,

    I agree that some people have a perception that things were going to drastically change. However isnt it possible that this perception was in a way misguided?

    Regardless who has the political power in Bermuda, the economic power is held by white Bermuda. it is what it is.

    Whenever this government tries to do anything to level the playing field it is distorted and magnified as tho the PLP wants to take the wealth from white folks and give it to blacks. So it is a very fine line.

    The black Bermudians that i am surrounded with have no major issues with the PLP government. They may differ on certain issues and wish certain things were done different but the majority are quite content with things being done at the governmental level. They appreciate and realize that no government is perfect and therefore are willing to allow mistakes and missteps. This ‘tolerance’ is less from the white community, and understandably so because 98% of them would never vote for a PLP government anyway, so they are continually looking at the glass as half empty.

    you have the people you have talked to…i wont call your credibility into question and say they are wrong…but also i expect the same respect. the vast majority to whom i converse with appreciate Loughlands, appreciate free PTB, appreciate the Urgent Care facility, appreciate the $$ put towards increasing seniors benefits consistently over the last 10 years. people love to complain about isolated incidents but when they see in front of them all the benefits they often rescind these complaints. Atleast in my presence they do.

    And i would never be as presumptious to believe that all black folks are content with this govt. But i also dont believe that this discontent is widespread. Even for those who may not like the current leader, they have made it abundantly clear to me that their discontent is not Party wide.

    So we’ll see…i wont belabor the point and continue discussing. because as has been stated we are all entitled to opinions, and see things from different perspectives.

    all i ask is that you guys realize and appreciate that your perspective is not the only one out there.

    and i do the same.

  53. LIF,

    honestly i dont know the benefits/drawbacks to the economy off the top of my head, so i wont defend these programs like that.

    what i will say is that my response was to comments about widespread discontent with this government…and that many people, and beneficiaries of these programs dont seem to have this widespread discontent. they see these programs as offering a helping hand to those in need.

    if there are financial drawbacks then i expect the min of finance and the govt to know when to draw the line and how to manage things.

    but from a social level, there are many families that need assistance and are happy with the fact that the government is providing assistance.

  54. From above “we that use the black press name will curb our revolutionary perspective for the sake of thoese who are not ready to handle that”

    Wait a sec, ‘black press’ isn’t one person but a bunch of folks? Why?

    Anyway I think that what he says has some validity. Some people are feeling frustrated to the point where they very may well take more direct and physical action. What it may manifest itself as, I couldn’t guess. But I don’t think it’s a scare tactic or a bluff. And maybe ken is right that the dissatisfaction is not as widespread as blackpress makes it out to be, but it’s still a voice and one that may be worth paying attention to.

    I just read the Gazette article where the reporter’s interviewed some gang members. They say that Government simply hasn’t done anything for them. Again, that’s their perspective and it can be rebutted with the “lead a horse to water” analogy but if they genuinely feel they have few options, and they’re the ones with possible access to weapons including firearms, then yikes.

  55. In fairness, I am not sure what anyone can do for people who earn $1000 a day, and don’t want to do the work that is around to be done.

    It’s no good them saying, I dropped out of school and the only job I can get is at the bottom.

    They have to be reached in some other way. Imho.

  56. Thanks Ken for your views which I do respect, and “yes” I think we all accept that our view is not the only one out there.

    Perhaps allow me one final thought.

    Sitting out here, reading Rolfe C’s views on what keeps the PLP together at this moment in time, it’s difficult to see how true dissatisfaction will ever be tested.

    Maybe Rolf is right. We need a replacement for the UBP. Put politics onto an issue-based footing.

  57. Quite an annolligy there Tryangle.

    “lead a horse too water”…..well friend, you’ll see what happens when the “well” runs dry.

    Gotta run….Mel Ayton horn dee lyne……Ironic eh?

    A great day too all and may your cup runneth over but please share…..

  58. As far as gangs are concerned, as long as their is an illegal trade to make money on, their will ALWAYS be gangs. The goal is not to get gangs to convert, but to PREVENT kids from getting involved in the first place. How do you convince someone that getting rich quick is a bad idea? Well, getting an education to make your own good money of course. Brings me to the free college.
    Here is what I have noticed. Those kids that do great in school be it public or private and their families have the money are usually headed out of the country for college. Those that don’t do well in high school or don’t have the money are going to stick around the island. Although government has kindly provided free college, their has not been a dramatic rise in enrollment. Reason being, if kids are not taught to VALUE education, then it does not matter if tuition is free.
    If you don’t graduate from high school or get a GED, free tuition is useless. With a failing public school system, its hard to imagine any child coming from broken and unstable homes getting excited about their education.

  59. Just off the top of my head Mr. Starling, is it not correct that you “joined” the PLP after the 1998 elections? Supporting it prior is differant right?

  60. Hi Rummy, you are correct, I joined the PLP in the week after the 1998 election. I had just turned 18 that year, and I had previously not been politically conscious, and so had not been involved in either party prior to that date.

    I’m not sure where you are going with this though. What do you mean by the ‘supporting it prior is different’ question? Not sure how to answer it at the moment.

  61. Quite simple J. Starling. “Not being politically concious” is one reason.

    Of course for dabate purposes one would assume that from your comments if it takes a week to change your mind not knowing where it was does raise ‘red flags’, thats all.

    As too where I am going with this is quite self explanatory. And please stop shifting the ‘burden of proof’.

    You will defend the party too death and I have a feeling I know why as to all the verbage you have stated and your feelings.

    It’s ironic that I just spoke too Mel Ayton and recveived emails from him today to review a few chapters in his book. He asked me, dummy the Rummy. What he wrote was ironic because it will be subject to publish quite soon.

    I will ask him if I can say more and if he says yes I will. I took it upon myself to say this only because I know the truth and his spoken words yet not published will make sense of what others have thought were according to ‘Mysty’ UFO’s in my mind.

    Chack yoo laydar…………………..

  62. Perhaps you should try reading the ‘About’ page which covers your questions? Still not sure where you are going with this.

  63. Already did my man. “Where are you going with this” ?

    You already know the answer. Just a matter of presentation. The questions and statements have been made now it’s up too you to dissertate and put it on the plate.

    No side orders thank you.

  64. Do your thing son. What a reply. I just hope the Queen has her bodyguards up too date.

    Gotta run…MI-6 on dee lyne…………………

    Hagis….dat yooo…?

  65. Ken…it dont matter if you believe or dont believe what has been said about the amount of dissatisfaction…..the rising activity in the drug trade by average people who are tired of mere survival….the creation of gangs fighting battles over the billion dollar drug trade…speaks volumes to whats going on….i seriously doubt that people like you even go into the so called gang areas, or de back of town….or 42…or de so called bda ghettos to find out the thoughts of the people who are in these antisocial groups…so exactly how would you even know what their thoughts are? YOu are taking your interactions with your perhaps upper middle class peers and thinking that the only perspective…..

    its just this type of sticking ones head in the sand that has contributed to the growth of anti social behaviour and growth of the social issues.

    its just that type of thinking that’s preparing the next generation of gangsters who will be far worst that what u lot are complaining about now…so believe what you will…they dont give a f what you believe about how many people u think are discontent, in fact im sure they are glad that you think the way you do….gives em more room to expand.

    yes the black press name is used by a few people who share similar perspectives on life in bermuda from the perspective of the person making far less than the official poverty line of $70k per yr, aka the working man in the street, who happen to be the majority of the population. you ask why? …saves time….provides a level of ananimity…

    The plp has done very little for this group of people… just like the ubp did very little for them.

    Black empowerment is a scam…..and there are people who can give their accounts on how this so called hands up program has done anything but empower them

    applicants have had their intellectual property stolen and used by the plp

    applicants have had portions of their business plans used by competitors after confidential info was leaked to competitors

    applicants have had their applications terminated after spending thousands when they called for accountability in the entire black empowerment process…leaving them financially worse off

    applicants in some cases have paid close to 10k and spent years in the run-around process to secure capital…one person spent 4yrs and $8k….jumping through all the hoops…and there were left with nothing.

    the plps form of black empowerment only empowers a select few…..the plp form of black empowerment empowers those who dont need empowerment…like plp MPs.

    the plp, on the floor of the house of assembly announced that a contract awarded to hot 1075 whose owner glenn blakney plp mp…was an example of black empowerment when they were given $100 plus thousand dollars…without a contract to rebroadcast world cup cricket when bermuda was in the match, via pay pre view.

    why would a sitting mp need to be empowered? while blacks who are not in politics…those who actually need access to capital to be empowered get the run around and get no capital.

    all one big scam. perhaps one day people will go public to expose the black empowerment scam.

    after finding out how some people have been mistreated in the so called black empowerment scam…many who are in the gang culture have correctly pointed out ….. if thats what happens to people who pay to get help from government…we are better off selling drugs than to be ripped off like that.

    have u noticed there are to statistics to show the success rates of the BSBDC

    the entire process needs to be reformed and the quango needs to be disbanded and the office placed in the ministry of social rehab.

    ITs all once big SCAM…..and to be blunt….they should know better than f with peoples hard earned money especially when they are officially poor!!!

    Can you imagine what such things can do to a person who is aspiring to move up in life?

    and people wonder y there are drug gangs….LMAO

  66. so lavern furbert are you going to take the list of suggestion of reform we listed earlier to your elitist plp central comitee to implament?

    if you do, you can take all the credit on being the plp saviour and prevent a new party from forming by getting the plp to adress the real issue the people want fixed here

    we wont tell if u do:)

  67. just imagine laverne…you can silence all the plp critics in one single move…you can do it ms furbert…we have faith in you:)

  68. Al this was predicted before the recessson. Corruption leads to poverty. Poverty leads to crime.

  69. “Poverty leads to crime”.

    Often said that this is the case. You night argue people have no choice but to go to crime.

    I would argue that people still have a choice, and alternatives.

  70. reality is martin…smart people choose crime….the stats prove this…your argument dont change the stats

  71. Absolutely correct Martin. Next week, Somalians will be able to dock their hijacked ships in Dubai and be compensated. The monies will be returned too Somalia and the band will play on.

    Choice? Desperate people do desperate things.

    Cup Match? Sharing a cup whether half full or empty is what it’s all about, not taking it for oneself.

    A great day too all.

  72. “yes the black press name is used by a few people who share similar perspectives on life in bermuda from the perspective of the person making far less than the official poverty line of $70k per yr, aka the working man in the street, who happen to be the majority of the population. you ask why? …saves time….provides a level of ananimity…”

    I get that, but you yourself could call yourself “black press devonshire” for example and the other person “black press crawl hill” for example, just so taht you don’t give the appearance that you’re just one man or woman bringing up certain issues.

    Like you said, in the online world the vast majority of contributors are probably above that 70K income threshold, so the more views we see from those who earn less $$, the better.

  73. “Smart people choose crime”….’black press’……..

    Bernie Madoff ring a bell? Sure you can rip people off but a majority get caught and can ruin the whole structure of civilization if you can call it that.

    Gotta run…….off too the North Pole wher I can chill for a while until…………


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