Congratulations To Mr. Charlie Swan

Well, I see that Mr. Charlie Swan has won the by-election in Southampton West Central.

Naturally I’m disappointed that Mr. Marc Bean of the PLP did not get in, and I’m also sad that Mr. Raymond Khalid Wasi Davis did not win a larger share of the vote. But thats life, and congratulations are due to Mr. Charlie Swan.

I am not optimistic about the fate of the UBP who I see as moribund, but maybe Mr. Swan will be able to help reverse direction. As much as I would like to see the end of the UBP, who as I’ve written several times I see to be a bulwark against political progress and discourse in Bermuda, I would also like them to act like the Opposition they are supposed to be serving as. That at least would be something to be happy about, even as I hope they see the light and move on into the archival history of Bermuda.

I hope that Mr. Bean is returned to the Senate and gets the chance to contribute further to Bermudian politics; I hope to see him elected to the House of Assembly in the future. For now though, well done to Mr. Swan.

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385 thoughts on “Congratulations To Mr. Charlie Swan

  1. Regardless of Mr. Bean’s personal merits, it’s reassuring to see that the childish and downright nasty, underhand attacks made against Mr. Swan on the official PLP websites were unsuccessful. “Clueless Charlie The Plumber”? Seriously? Lying about Mr. Swan having supposedly misleading voters, when he did no such thing? Referring to Mr. Swan as “poor Charlie”? Grow up, David Burt.

    That said, I will be the first to admit that I found it entirely inappropriate for a certain pro-UBP blogger to publish an article questioning Mr. Bean’s fiscal responsibility, without providing any evidence of the same.

  2. Just a thought after reading on the ” MP’s angry blowout”. I read that Zane De Silva said that the Southampton election proves what the premier said about white Bermudians voting patterns. This makes me angry and truly wonder about the intelligence level of him and Dr. Brown. Dr. Brown stated that basically Bermudian whites would not have voted for Obama because of the color of his skin. The last time I checked Mr. Swan is not white!!!!!! So what they are saying sounds incredibly stupid! The deductive reasoning is way off! Those of you can talk all day about how the the black UBP candidates are controlled by the white man behind the scenes, but the fact remains that many candidates on the UBP are in fact black, so therefore the fact remains that white Bermudians do vote for black candidates.

  3. Hi Sara,

    I can understand where some within the PLP are coming from, but I agree with you that the logics are a bit off. Obama’s election and the whole argument can actually contradict the position of those within the PLP using this line of thought. Obama is an African-American who was elected as the presidential candidate for an overwhelmingly White political party, and the phenomena is more akin to UBPism (Black candidates for a White party) and, really, just looks stupid. The discussion about how the Whites in Bermuda do tend to vote en bloc does need to be discussed (and is being discussed), but this approach is contradictory and illogical in my opinion.

    As for the Mr. Desilva and Ms. Pamplin-Gordon blowup, I do think Ms. Pamplin-Gordon is in the wrong there, and that while both made mistakes and should not have allowed it to blow up as it did, Mr. Desilva looks better by apologising. Ms. Pamplin-Gordon no doubt was too upset in the heat of the moment to accept it, but it certainly looks worse for her in my opinion.

  4. Sara,

    Dr. Brown never said that white Bermudians do not vote for black candidates. What he did say, and I’m paraphrasing, was that white Bermudians have traditionally voted for the UBP. That’s altogether different from saying white people do not vote for black candidates. That would be ridiculous for anyone to say because we all know that the UBP has had black candidates since its inception. As Wayne Furbert said in the House on Friday, the “charts show this to be true”, i.e. the majority of whites in Bermuda only vote for one party.

  5. No, what he said was that white folks would vote for McCain over Obama, but didn’t actually say why, other than they vote UBP.
    He made no correlation between obama and the PLP, didn’t define what he meant by this.

    If it was just “white folks vote UBP”, then why being in the American election?
    No one has, or will, explain what Obama and the PLP or McCain and the UBP have in common, or exactly what Dr. Brown meant by this statement. I’m willing to bet no one will, too, other than the usual distractions and misdirections and evasions.

  6. Uncle Elvis,

    According to the Royal Gazette on November 18, 2008: “He said that voting patterns in Bermuda showed that whites choose the United Bermuda Party over the Progressive Labour Party at the polls.”

    Dr. Brown said: “If you looked at the voting patterns in Bermuda, which all vote in lines, if whites in Bermuda were to vote in the US using the same lines, they would have voted for the other man.”

    You can call my comments what you like, but I’m trying to set the record straight.

    I was not in the House of Assembly that night and have not heard a recording of the proceedings, so I can only go by what the RG reporters wrote.

  7. I understand that, Ms. Furbert, and have read both quotes. What I’m not getting is what the correlation between “the other man” and the UBP, and by extension, Obama and the PLP, is.

    Why does a traditional vote for the UBP equal a vote for Sen. McCain… Or against President Elect Obama?

    THAT is what I’m asking for elucidation on.

  8. There can be no rational elucidation. It is a rhetorical splurge. You can’t pin him on exactly what he meant. You can only ask what he would have said, had he just come out and said it. What he appears to be saying is inconsequential and odd. What he appears to be saying has resonance. And sounds like more like Ewart: i.e.: “White people, don’t pretend to like Obama. I know you are all racists and would never do so given the chance.” I remember he did one of these before. I can’t remember the exact wording. It was incredibly convoluted as is his style in such cases ( see Furbert above for quote in referenced style ) . The implication was that he wanted to come across the aisle and physically assault Gibbons who was opposition leader at the time. But Gibbons either missed it or didn’t take the bait. I would have called him on it. The UBP needs to grow a couple. Dr. Brown is angry at something. Don’t know what it is exactly but there’s no reason the rest of us should suffer his little moments.

  9. “There can be no rational elucidation. It is a rhetorical splurge. You can’t pin him on exactly what he meant. You can only ask what he would have said, had he just come out and said it.”

    Exactly. It’s not about what he literally said, it’s what impression people were meant to take from it and why he would feel the need to say it in the first place.

  10. Why is nobody calling him on it?
    Why do we seem content to drop it and just shrug our shoulders and say, “oh, well. He’ll never say what he meant.” and just let the insinuation lay?

  11. “Why is nobody calling him on it?”

    Aside from the diehard PLPers and Ewart apologists, that’s precisely what people have been doing since he made his offensive remarks.

  12. Why don’t you send an e-mail to Dr. Brown (ebrown@gov.bm) and ask him exactly what he meant. The remarks as recorded by the Royal Gazette reporter, were not verbatim, but I’m sure he’ll he happy to elucidate for you. As I said, I was not in the House that evening, neither did I listen to the proceedings on the radio, so I don’t know exactly what he said.

  13. Ok, then let me put it another way…

    Ms. Furbert,

    As a supporter, what do you think he meant by this? What do you think the correlation between Sen. McCain and traditional voting for the UBP is? How does this make sense to you? How does White Bermuda’s traditionally voting UBP (which I’m not arguing in any way) indicate that they’d vote for “the other man”?

  14. If you want to see the problem that a die-hard Dr. Brown-ite gets into when trying to explain his comments, just follow this thread: http://www.progressiveminds.bm/?q=node/295

    I’m not 100% sure who Rocksolid is, so I won’t make any assertions, but’s rather humourous what a tizzy he gets himself into. Of course, he also has time to call me racist, use IP tracking to prove I’m not on the island and refuse to actually back up his points. But when your leader says something even you don’t understand, some people can’t just hold up their hands and go, I dunno what he meant, he’s not perfect.

    Some quotes:
    “He *did not* say that if white Bermudians were given a vote in the US election, they would vote for McCain over Obama. He said if white Bermudians voted along the same *historical patterns* as they vote in Bermuda, they would’ve voted for McCain instead of Obama.” and when pressed to explain the correlation between UBP and Obama:
    “The point is about historical voting patterns. That’s it. It had nothing to do with who white Bermudians would’ve voted for in the US presidential election if they had the right to vote.”

    That’s right, Dr. Brown’s comments were ‘nothing to do with who white Bermudians would’ve voted for in the US presidential election’. So. Why. Say. It?

  15. If you want to see the problem that a die-hard Dr. Brown-ite gets into when trying to explain his comments, just follow this thread: http://www.progressiveminds.bm/?q=node/295

    I’m not 100% sure who Rocksolid is, so I won’t make any assertions, but’s rather humourous what a tizzy he gets himself into. Of course, he also has time to call me racist, use IP tracking to prove I’m not on the island and refuse to actually back up his points. But when your leader says something even you don’t understand, some people can’t just hold up their hands and go, I dunno what he meant, he’s not perfect.

    Some quotes:
    “He *did not* say that if white Bermudians were given a vote in the US election, they would vote for McCain over Obama. He said if white Bermudians voted along the same *historical patterns* as they vote in Bermuda, they would’ve voted for McCain instead of Obama.” and when pressed to explain the correlation between UBP and Obama:
    “The point is about historical voting patterns. That’s it. It had nothing to do with who white Bermudians would’ve voted for in the US presidential election if they had the right to vote.”

    That’s right, Dr. Brown’s comments were ‘nothing to do with who white Bermudians would’ve voted for in the US presidential election’. So. Why. Say. It?

  16. If I thought I could have have an intelligent debate on the issue without being attacked personally and having my family members attacked personally, in particular my sons, I would say what I think the Premier meant when he made those remarks. However, each time that I try to engage on this site, I quickly become an ogre, so I would rather not comment at this time. However, I do understand what the Premier was trying to say. I also understand what Zane DeSilva was saying, having been a candidate in Southampton West in 1983 and 1985.

  17. Here we go again… More of the same nonsense… ‘I know what he meant and I would tell you but I won’t cause you will call me mean names…. and you won’t understand anyway’

  18. Maybe Marc would have got in if he employed a decent agent, I hear that Andre Curtis is a fine upstanding member of the community.

    Give him a call Marc!!

  19. Ms Furbert,

    I don’t believe that I have ever attacked you, nor shall I should you change your mind and decide to have a conversation with me.
    I am very interested to find out what the Premier meant when he said what he said, as my understanding of it offended me. I have been an outspoken, if voteless, supporter of Mr. Obama since I first heard him speak, long before the two-horse race for candidacy (that led to many an argument in my house regarding Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama!).
    On that amazing night, I was, as far as I can tell, the first web cartoonist to post a strip proudly announcing his victory, so for our leader to insinuate that I would have voted differently offends me. In addition, my sister-in-law and many of my friends who CAN vote in the American election DID, in fact, vote for Mr. Obama.

    Instead of writing this off as racist rhetoric, I am trying to get to the bottom of it, to see if I’m misunderstanding him, and Mr. DeSilva, by extension.

  20. Uncle Elvis,

    I can’t remember if you have ever “attacked” me, and I don’t have the time, nor the wherewithall to go back and check every post that you have written, however, I can’t recall if you have ever defended me either. Most of Bermuda has been a voteless supporter of Obama since he put his hat in the ring for the presidency. In fact, I had not heard of Obama until Derrick Burgess told me about his speech at the Democratic National Convention 4 years ago and then I started paying attention. I too, like most of the free world, was a voteless supporter of Obama, however, I live in Bermuda and my support or your support, or anybody’s else’s support of Obama has done nothing to heal the racial divide in Bermuda.

    As I see it, the reality of the situation is that Obama is now the President-elect of the United States of America because he avoided addressing some issues that need to be addressed in America, race, being one of them. I, like many people in Bermuda (and elsewhere) spent endless nights watching CNN News and MSNBC just to hear Obama speak, but at the end of the day I realise that Obama is just like you (and me), a mere mortal.

    But back to Bermuda politics, the fact remains that in Bermuda, not matter who the candidate (PLP,UPB, Independent, or their credentials, whites in Bermuda vote for the UBP. If Barack Obama, or his clone was an independent candidate, or a PLP candidate running in a marginal district, would he have been successful at the polls?

    Let’s have that discussion.

  21. I too, like most of the free world, was a voteless supporter of Obama, however, I live in Bermuda and my support or your support, or anybody’s else’s support of Obama has done nothing to heal the racial divide in Bermuda.

    Ok, so you agree that Dr. Brown was incorrect in his remarks (as you’ve clearly confirmed Obama has widespread support in Bermuda … as we are presumably part of the “free world”).

    But back to Bermuda politics, the fact remains that in Bermuda, not matter who the candidate (PLP,UPB, Independent, or their credentials, whites in Bermuda vote for the UBP. If Barack Obama, or his clone was an independent candidate, or a PLP candidate running in a marginal district, would he have been successful at the polls?.

    Yes … but let’s turn yours and Dr. Brown’s comments on their head and ask a more revealing question. As polling history has proven the UBP attracts support from the vast majority of white Bermuda as well as black Bermuda (resulting, in my view, with a much better representation reflective of a cross section of the population) while the PLP success is reliant solely on the latter. Given this statistic, would PLP supporters in fact vote for Obama if he ran for the UBP?

  22. Ms. Furbert,
    Nowhere did the Premier say “if he ran for the PLP…”

    Had he, I wouldn’t have a problem with what he said. If this is, in fact, the case, and he said, “if he ran for the PLP…”, then I will stand corrected.
    Until then, I find the assumption that he would automatically run for the PLP to be presumptuous.

    As for his lack of addressing race during the run-up, I do agree with you that there could have been more talk about it. However, I believe that his intentions, based on interviews and conversations with people in his camp, was to win the race, then, when he is in a position to do something about it, do it. I believe, and think you’ll agree, that there are a lot of people that are scared off by race talk by politicians. However, the President of the United States of America DOING something about the divide… Well, that’s a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.

    Finally, in closing, I wasn’t aware that you needed defending. From what I can see, you do a pretty fine job of defending yourself.

  23. The “Rev” Al Sharpton is more likely to run for the UBP in Paget than Obama standing with a green tshirt on.

  24. So what does everyone think about today’s paper? Some very interesting articles.

    (1) Wayne Furbert quits UBP and will sit as independent but hasnt ruled out PLP. While this shouldnt be much of a surprise, I actually am surprised that it happened. He says the UBP is a spent entity, and that if an election was held tomorrow there is no PLP seat that the UBP would win, and that Donte Hunt, Kim Swan and Bob Richards would all be ousted. I tend to agree. I see the UBP making no inroads in any marginals, whereas I think PLP candidates would win those areas plus Wayne Furbert’s area.

    (2) Andre Curtis is apparently named in a fraud investigation. I have no real opinion on this. I am not a fan of Mr. curtis but that deosnt necessarily mean he is a criminal. I guess we would have to see the details of this case for what they are.

    (3) Michael Dunkley being accused of trying to stage a coup in Tuckers Town to take control of the club. I have to read all the details but current president Shirley james is accusing Dunkley and a group of “40 thieves” of trying to stage a coup. Very interesting.

  25. 1. I think Wayne is a wonderful person, an idealist with Bermuda’s best interests in his heart. However he just seems to be used by people because of this. While he hasn’t ruled out the PLP, he doesn’t strike me as vindictive enough to join them while the current administration is in place, one he definitely doesn’t share views with. I think he’d be a great independent, and hope that he reamins actively invovled in politics in Bermuda because, like I said, I think he’s a good person.

    What I also KNOW is that this will be another feather in the cap of the ‘UBP are racist’ brigade, headed up by David Burt and the PLP.bm website, who seem to have an autokey which types, at any point ‘Maxwell Burgess, Gwyneth Rawlins, Jamhal Simmons’ and will now add his name to that list. And I also know that the argument will be there’s no smoke without fire, but those same people have been making that argument when the list was 1 name, then 2, then 3 and now 4. I think it’s actually very different individuals that left for individual reasons. But hey, the PLP’s current crop are all about sensationalism and spin, so expect it to be paraded around the rooftops. At the expense of…

    2. Andre Curtis looks to be caught. Having looked at the website, and the claims it makes, and the fact that apparently he is certified to offer none of thse in Bermuda, plus the fact that it shares a telephone number with a PLP branch, one has to wonder how he’s going to get out of this one, even with his high up friend(s). I still want my money back for the FBT.

    3. If someone is white and does something that you don’t like, is the term ’40 Thieves’ now the offical saying for this? Michael Dunkely was barely alive during the ’40 Thieves’ era. Using rhetoric like that, we might just as easily call Dr. Brown a ‘Black panther’. Outdated, racist terms are offensive both ways no?

  26. Oh and Ms. Furbert. My question is ridiculously simple, and one that no one on PM would answer.

    If Dr. Brown did NOT mean that white Bermudians would vote for ‘the other guy’ in the US elections, than why did he use this analogy.

    If his point, his ONLY point was to demonstrate that white Bermudians vote UBP, and he meant no insinuations, patterns, relatinoships or parallels with the Obama, McCain, Conservative or Democrat, than why did HE bring it up?

    As I said in PM, it was his decision to use that lanugage, and that analogy. Just because he and his hardcore supporters now realise it was stupid and wrong, doesn’t mean he can just back out of it. No one is perfect, but if you call a spade a club in public, just come out and say sorry. Don’t come out with this bullsh*t that you in fact meant a spade is an instrument of labour, and clubs are too, and spades often have wood handles and clubs are wood and oh well maybe the ‘combined opposition’ just misquoted me. Its cowardice. He f*cked up. It happens.

  27. 1. Political Flake flounces out of marginalized political party. Yawn….
    2. Ethically challenged, light fingered, high level member of the friends and family plan adds to our stellar reputation for financial probity. The competition between Ewart, Julian and Andre to see who can live most beyond their means goes on.
    3. Private members at a private members club have a spat over internal rules. Yawn #2.

    Ken, ever wonder why Ewart spends more time at the MOC than he does in any working mens club or in de backatahn? Unless there is a camera present you won’t find him supporting Ashfield’s call to boycott white businesses….

  28. Just to add to the earlier discussion… I think that on the surface Zane DeSilva’s comments regarding the outcome of the by-election are spot on. White folks vote for the UBP. Even when given another alternative in the form of an Independent, Khalid Wasi… who only managed 24 votes in spite of his involvement with the ABC, and on a background of individuals supposedly wanting change and progress sans the UBP.

    Interesting.

    This victory leads me to believe that UBP supporters will continue to cling to the UBP come hell or high water because it is seen as the only ‘viable’ option… The irony in that is this: Many posters on these blogs condemn the average black Bermudian for continued support of the PLP under Dr Brown, when given the opportunity to cast their own votes, they too vote along familiar, ‘safe’, if non-sensical lines… Seems like we want change. But only at the expense of the PLP.

  29. maybe (and this is a crazy notion) they feel more comfortable with a fairly middle of the road set of policies that aren’t framed in irrelevant terms of racial references…

  30. “White folks vote for the UBP. Even when given another alternative in the form of an Independent, Khalid Wasi…”

    CO,

    That argument can also be vice versa. So why just single out the white voters? not too many PLP supporters voted for Mr. Wasi either. Why is it racist that Mr. Swan won, but a great victory if Mr. bean would have won?

  31. Sigh.

    9ps… Well, generally speaking, it’s not the black folks who are clamouring down the walls for change or crying foul or getting up in arms. It’s the white folk… Who have demonstrated that they still view the UBP as the most viable option for facilitating the change that they envision. Even moreso than an Independent candidate when given the alternative. In spite of all the flowery things that progressive, liberal white folks on the blogs have to say about unity, the notion of the ABC, and all the rest, nothing really ever changes. Black or white.

  32. Call me old-fashioned, but I don’t think that tying a rope around the the Sally Bassett statue and performing some bizarre racial pantomime in the Cabinet Office grounds one week before a bye-election was a particularly effective way of appealing to typically middle of the road voters.

  33. PS… I think the GREAT victory would have been if Mr Wasi had won… or at least gotten more votes. Becuase that would have dispelled the notion that white folk vote only for the UBP. But it didn’t. Cuz they do.

  34. ” It’s the white folk… Who have demonstrated that they still view the UBP as the most viable option for facilitating the change that they envision.”

    I disagree with your above comment. As Mr. Bean put it in the run up to the election, white Bdians are stuck between a rock and a hard place in voting here. Do you really expect whites to vote for a party that frankly doesn’t like them and doesn’t “need their votes to become Govt” (as quoted by Ms. furbert).

    “Well, generally speaking, it’s not the black folks who are clamouring down the walls for change or crying foul or getting up in arms”

    Well with persistent racial rhetoric and the labelling of all white Bdians by the current administration, why do you think that individuals want change? What is this type of bevahior.rhetoric doing for BDA as a whole? Absolutlely nothing

  35. I agree Casual Observer.
    I dont get how the traditional UBP supporters condemn, criticize and castigate blacks or PLP supporters for supporting our party but they are just as aligned to the UBP – even when presented with an alternative.
    And I think you made a good point that by and large Black Bermuda isnt clamouring for ‘change’ like white Bermuda is. So if there was any segment that should have taken the candidate for change i.e. Raymond Davis, then it would have been the UBP supporters.

  36. “And I think you made a good point that by and large Black Bermuda isnt clamouring for ‘change’ like white Bermuda is”

    So Ken basically you see nothing wrong with the dividive language and constant labellign of a whole set of people by the current PLP administration?

  37. Lost in Flatts,

    As I will continue to say, what we read in the Royal Gazette is the reporter’s interpretation of what Dr. Brown said. There are very few quotes in the story, meaning that s/he didn’t get everything that he said and I certainly won’t second-guess him. Additionally, the RG is making it appear that Dr. Brown’s remarks were made in a vacuum, which I’m sure they weren’t. The fact of the matter remains that over 90% of white Bermudians vote for the UBP, no matter who the UBP candidate is or who the PLP candidate is or who the independent is, except of course when the voted for Stuart Hayward so that they could send Dr. James a message.

    Last week Thursday (December 4, 2008) I saw the grandchildren on white UBP voters voting for Charlie Swan even though I know they would probably relate more with Marc Bean. The other thing I found unchanged at the polls was that the UBP supporters only greeted the UBP candidate, but the PLP supporters greeted both candidates. I wonder why that is.

  38. Do you honestly think that change is not needed from this type of behavior from the “leaders” of your country? How do you expect the public to act if the supposed role models of our society act in such a manner? Is that type of BDA you want to live in, cause I f*cking don’t!!

  39. When I went to the polls this year with my white cousin and with my black wife, my wife was greeted warmly by our big conversationalist and my cousin was told to fcuk off back to crackersville. Literally.

  40. “Do you really expect whites to vote for a party that frankly doesn’t like them and doesn’t “need their votes to become Govt” (as quoted by Ms. furbert).”

    Ding ding ding. Now. substitute ther word ‘whites’ for the word ‘blacks’ and you will uncover the reason why black Bermudians by and large vote for the PLP. Finally. Somewhat of an admission, or at least hopefully a general consensus, if not an admission, that the PLP is just as unviable to whites, as the UBP is to blacks.

    So our voting patterns will continue along the same lines for the next 100 years until either things get so bad in Bermuda that the issues move to the forefront, or we are so mixed up genetically that we don’t know who we’re supposed to vote for anymore.

    Again. Individuals were given an alternative. In the form of an Independent candidate who has been praised in the blogosphere for his talk of unity and putting racial politics aside. And voted for the not-quite defunct UBP anyway. NEITHER BLACK NOR WHITE BERMUDIANS REALLY WANT CHANGE, UNLESS IT COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER GROUP. Stop condemning Black Bermudians for continuing to vote PLP, when white Bermuda continues to vote UBP.

  41. ” saw the grandchildren on white UBP voters voting for Charlie Swan even though I know they would probably relate more with Marc Bean.”

    I doubt that since they are all “neo fascists who want to lock you all up, it’s true.”-Mr. bean

  42. Gee, I wonder why whites weren’t too friendly towards the candidate representing the Party that demonizes whites at every turn and implies with not subtle racist rhetoric that white Bermudians are the same as the evil slave-owning ancestors that they’re presumed to have?

  43. “Stop condemning Black Bermudians for continuing to vote PLP, when white Bermuda continues to vote UBP.”

    Excuse me? Where the hell did I condemn black voters for voting PLP? You are becoming a little bit like Ms. Furbert by twisting ones words around. I asked why you would consider Mr. Swan’s victory as a racist one that and if Mr. Bean had won a great victory? I never condemned anyone.

  44. 9ps – Take a deep breath and step away from the computer. Seriously. That was intended as a general statement to all of those who continuously question the intelligence of black Bermudian voters who go to the poll and vote for the PLP. Those who are condescending in their remarks and want to change to come, but only if it means black Bermudians modifyiing their voting patterns and behaviours.

    And incidentally, never did I say that a Bean victory would have been a great one. So if you want to talk about twisting words…well…

  45. “And incidentally, never did I say that a Bean victory would have been a great one. So if you want to talk about twisting words…well…”

    That was more of a reference to Mr. Desilva’s comments in the House on Friday. Shouldn’t have said “you.”

    I understand why black people are wary and don’t vote for teh UBP. But Loki does have a point above. No one is going to vote for a Party or individual that clearly states their hatred and despise for them. It is now, once again, becoming a weekly occurance to bash/demonise all white Bdians.

    The scary thing is that there isn’t an election in sight. Thus this leads one to believe that this isn’t just a political ploy to garner votes. It is the actual stance and beliefs of the current administration towards people that don’t look like them. So these claims on the PLP blog and by other members of being an all inclusive party with the door wide opena for anyone is not different then the whites wanting change and still voting for the UBP>

  46. 9ps… The issue at hand is not why white whites did not vote for the PLP… Nobody expected them to. The issue is why in light of all the flowery talk about change, and about putting race politics aside why didn’t they show more support for the Independent candidate who has put himself out there as a unifying, progressive figure.

    “So these claims on the PLP blog and by other members of being an all inclusive party with the door wide opena for anyone is not different then the whites wanting change and still voting for the UBP”

    I disagree. There is a huge difference between how the PLP as an organization run themselves and how white voters as individuals choose to behave. An organization that double talks is one thing. INDIVIDUALS who double talk are simply being insincere and disingenuous.

  47. @ Ms Furbet.

    Again, if your line is that Dr. Brown did not say the quote, then surely he should have sued the paper for libel? The quote was also featured on plp.bm for a while, though it appears to be gone now. If you want to argue that he didn’t say:
    “If you looked at the voting patterns in Bermuda, which all vote in lines, if whites in Bermuda were to vote in the US using the same lines, they would have voted for the other man.”
    Then fine, you can argue that the RG made up this quote.

    But if you accept that he did say those words, then I just can’t work out how on Earth you can seperate out the US election from his point, especially given when he made the comments. I have no problem with him saying that white Bermudians always vote UBP. Totally true. I have a problem with him saying ‘if whites in Bermuda were to vote in the US…they would vote (McCain)” because it’s just not true.

  48. @ CO – No offense to the man, I appreciate his sentiment and effort, but to hold up Khalid as a viable alternative to current political parties is a bit of a stretch. Blindly voting change for the sake of a change is just as counterproductive as voting by party.

    If Wayne Furbert were to run as an independent and not receive many votes, THAT would indicate the kind of closed mindedness you’re alluding to.

    But I do understand the point, and agree with it. Why would PLP fans want to change the status quo – they ARE the status quo.

  49. ” An organization that double talks is one thing. INDIVIDUALS who double talk are simply being insincere and disingenuous.”

    I am sorry I fail to see the difference. So it is ok for a Political party, such as the PLP to state that they have an open door policy one minute and the next bash a WHOLE segment of the population? Why can’t this be considered as them being insincere and disingenuous? Serious question as it seems quite hypocritical to me..

  50. LiF –
    Harold Darrell aka Son of the Soil received a mere 24 votes in Contituency 17 at a time when again… Bermudians were supposedly clamouring for change in light of supposed rampant corruption. Particularly white Bermudians. So, in order to be considered a ‘viable alternative’ by whites do you have to have a proven track record (read: past allegiance to the UBP) as per Wayne Furbert, or is there some other criteria?

    9ps –

    An organization saying that they welcome all people and then being selective in the process, likely for organizaitonal reasons, to me is different from people saying that they want change and then voting for the same old, same old at the polls. It’s easier for people to change and thereby effect individual change than it is to expect all the nuts and bolts of an organization to change direction and bring about change. It’s the actions of the people who supposedly want change that influences how the actions of the organization is perceived. When we remove certain truths (ie, that whites vote UBP), the message of the organization (ie, that whites vote UBP, therefore blacks must protect their interests and vote PLP) does not resonate with the individuals the organization attempts to negatively influence.

    We operate in Bermuda on fear-based politics.

  51. Ken

    I’m interested, why don’t you like Andre? Is it his steadfast refusal to provide any transparency to his faith based tourist scam? Or is it his “lifestyle”?

    Mambo

  52. “An organization saying that they welcome all people and then being selective in the process, likely for organizaitonal reasons, to me is different from people saying that they want change and then voting for the same old, same old at the poll”

    I see your point, but I disagree. There’s nothing selective in their racial tirades. It is aimed at white Bdians and only white Bdians. You can’t have the leader, who ultimately is the leader because he/she best represents the stance of the Party, use racial rhetoric and then have another member say but our door is always open to white Bdians, and then have another member once again demonise all white Bdians. That is being insincere and disingenuous no matter if you are an instiution or an individual.

    Again you can’t say our door is always open to white people, then say whites are all slave masters, racists. neo-fascists, want to put us back on the plantation and we don’t need the white vote anyway to win. Just doesn’t work now does it?

  53. After all that racial language and blanket labelling all whites by the PLP, do you really expect whites to come in droves to join the PLP?

    When they don’t the natural reaction of the PLP administration is “See we told ’em the door is always open and they didn’t show up,told you they were all racists.” What is a white guy supposed to do huh?

  54. @ CO – I think when Harold was running white Bermuda was doing its bestest to get the UBP elected to stem the corruption. Therefore he was never going to do well.

    The bielection had much better timing for a change, but I don’t think that he was the answer. Just my opinion of course.

    You are right of course, there are many UBP stalwarts who will never change their minds, just like any legacy party. Which is why the change that many of us are decrying will never take place while the two parties exist in the way that they do at present.

    Does Bermuda really need so many representatives? Surely we have the lowest voter/representative in government ratio in the whole world. I say you have 11 cabinet seats, and individuals run for those positions. Forces individuals to choose how they want to help Bermuda, forces people to vote based on who they think can offer the most given their skills and gets rid of the bickering and politicking. The premier is then voted as lead of the cabinet by the cabinet members. Easy.

    4 year elections, if 10,000 voters sign a form online a bi-election can take palce at any point during the term. Maximum 3 terms.

    All cabinet seats are full time jobs. No shadows. No opposition. Just 11 people tasked with running a tiny country. Use the civil service. Don’t micro manage.

    Gets rid of conflict, gets rid of the existing parties, draws a line under the history to date and we can move on.

  55. the white posters on this site seem to believe that it’s the plp/brown etc. who has to change – they have already changed – they changed from the opposition to the govt. – but the ubp make such a poor opposition that the last bastions of white power in bda (the gazette, the blogs etc.) have taken it upon themselves to be teh opposition – but their rhetoric doesn’t come across as soaring the way opposition leaders like ottie simmons, lbe and freddy wade’s did – it comes across as bitchy and whiny

    the constant bikcering of white owned blogs and of white owned newspapers is counterproductive – ie. Fox news hates the democrats which is why they and obama rarely go on their or even engage them – changing white people’s minds in bda at this point is a lost cause.

    during the prez campaign the unions in white states like ohio and pennsylvania knew that their members would have a hard time voting for a blk man (obama) – so rather than try and change their white members minds – their campaign literature bluntly said YOU CAN HAVE A BLACK FRIEND OR A WHITE ENEMY IN THE WHITE HOUSE

    and bda is way behind the US when it comes to race relations – so that tells u how far behind we are.

    in the 60s when the labour union was fighting for equal rights and pay at BELCO – the gazette sided with the white owners at belco and demonized labour leader ottie simmons.

    today the gazette is doing the same thing – siding with white power and demonizing blk leaders.

    in the 70s my white 60 year old school principal demonized the labour leaders of that day with rhetoric almost verbatim to what young anti plp bloggers say today – nothing has changed – probably never will

  56. Lost In Flatts,

    If in fact the paper did misquote Dr. Brown, it does not mean that the report was libelous. As I have said 100 times, I wasn’t in the House, it was not a prepared speech, and I don’t speak for Dr. Brown. But when I have a question for him I contact him at ebrown@gov.bm and he always responds. Why don’t you do the same thing if his remarks were so disturbing to you? I can tell you that if a member of the Opposition says something that disturbs me greatly, I would question them personally.

    I really don’t understand how anyone could say that the PLP “bashes” white people when the statement is made that white people in Bermuda vote for the UBP. How is that insulting to white people?

  57. Lost in flatts,

    You say “@ CO – I think when Harold was running white Bermuda was doing its bestest to get the UBP elected to stem the corruption. Therefore he was never going to do well. ”

    what corruption? I get tired of reading about this widespread corruption that has never been proven. Get the heck over it.

    Similarly, I dont recall seeing any of you or your parents wanting to stem the tide of corruption and favors of years and generations past…

  58. Ken – Easy killer. Given my grandparents were digging up fields with hoes like the rest of the Gee’s I’m sure they’d of loved some corruption coming their way. Could have monopolised the carrot market, sorted their mates out with the best bananas and given great deals to their friends for the watermelons. Mmmm. A great big green cartel.

    As to your point. Paragraph 1 says there’s no corruption. Paragraph 2 says there is corruption, but it’s okay becase whites were doing it first. At least make your own mind up before you ask me to comment.

    @ Laverne – You’re the only person claiming the RG misquoted him. I’m taking it to be an accurate quote, because I don’t have the time energy or to be honest will to email every person who is ever quoted in our national newspaper to verify their words as truth. If you don’t want to give your opinion about what he could have meant by including the comments on the US election so be it. It’s now old news anyway.

  59. “As I have said 100 times, I wasn’t in the House, it was not a prepared speech, and I don’t speak for Dr. Brown.”

    Then how do you know if the paper misquoted Dr. Brown? You don’t, so stop making all these claims that you know something that ohters don’t.

    And andother question (which I know you won’t answer), in your LtoE where you helped to validate Bill Zuill’s opinion piece (well done), I want to know how the hell the RG is responsible for the slow reform being implemented regarding BDA’s eduaction system? How in the world is a newspaper responsible for slow Government reform?

  60. I never said there was corruption going on. What i am saying is that i find it ironic that many are so up in arms over alleged corruption under the PLP but never had any issue with the misdealings under the UBP administration. Wrong is wrong, and if there is corruption under the PLP then I would be against it as well. But I also would be against it under a UBP administration.

    So Lost in flatts, you are descended from the Portuguese…so what makes the Portuguese by and large automatically align with the UBP when you have been discriminated against by the larger white population as the black population was? Is it because aligning with the UBP means that you have achieved a particular status level in society, and allows you to disassociate from the black population? I am not trying to be a smart aleck but I do wonder by the Portuguese and Black bermudians are not more aligned.

  61. If that was a misquote we would have heard about it from Dr. Brown himself by now, and seen a correction in the paper. The context it was in is what could be questioned, and if as he claims he was just trying to speak to the historic voting patterns of white bermudians he did a really bad job of it. The thing that bothered me more than anything is that he said people appeared to be jumping on the “Obama bandwagon” after his election. That’s what bothered me. I was pulling for him the entire time, and went out celebrating with friends that night after the election was called. We even ran into a group of Kenyans, which was kind of random, but the whole feeling of the night was great. Then to have it insinuated that I was just jumping on a bandwagon, well it really pissed me off. Kind of like when the Red Sox won the series in 2004. People questioned my support for the team, and I got defensive having been a fan since I was seven years old.

  62. Faith Based Tourism – 238 tourists – $600k missing of tax payers money- refusal to answer questions

    Coco Reef Lease – lease had been altered to the point where the original terms were not recogniable or found – opposition requests that it be tabled in order for the new terms (giving away BDA’s protected land) to be debated upon – Premier makes racist allegations and shuts down democratic debate in the house – Premier’s office releases letter from the Speaker stating that all debate will be shut down upon allegations of corruption – The speaker subsequently denies any knowledge of such a letter being submitted from his office

    BHC Scandal – police documents speak for themselves

    Govt. construction contracts being awarded but never tendered – coincidentally to the two construction companies who are white owned and non-unionised i might add and connected to the PLP in some shape or form –

  63. @ Ken – Good to know you’re against corruption regardless of who is doing it, I’m totally with you on that. As for what I’m talking about, hey, I guess if the law couldn’t prove it, we should just let it go. If you honestly believe that in Dr. Brown’s administration everyone is judged on their performance, and not how much he likes them, that’s cool. We’ll never know I guess.

    As for why my family supports the UBP, last time I checked Portuguese are European and white. Hence when Dr. Brown or Sen. Burch or Lavita Foggo or Marc Bean or anyone else in the PLP administration says something derogatory towards whites, I hear it too.

    Put another way, I’m pretty sure all of the pro-black rhetoric being used isn’t inclusive of us. I really don’t think what Ashfield DeVent was saying by shop at stores owned by people that look like us was shop at stores owned by blacks and we’ll include those nice portugeees too.

    PLP are a black party. Unashamedly so. Fair play. Don’t wonder why they don’t get support from anyone else though.

  64. 9PS – the pay to play scandal would have got jail time in many jurisdictions, would probably have ended his career in many other places.

    The Ewart endorsed THE mock charity funds black hole.

  65. The D,

    I do believe that Dr. Brown did give an explanation at the next day of sitting, but it was not carried in the RG. The fact of the matter is that no matter what he says or does, in the opinion of most of the posters here, he says it wrong and does it wrong. It is true, everybody was/is jumping on the Obama wagon, look at how many people were/are wearing Obama tee shirts and selling Obama paraphenalia. Even Charles Spanswick called the Shirley Dill Show on Sunday to encourage people to come and buy the Obama products that he has to sell. I wonder what the reaction would have been had someone come up with idea to sell Dr. Brown tee shirts during the last election.

  66. I’ve surely stumbled into some parallel universe when I witness someone seriously, without a trace of irony, equate a man of Barack Obama’s honour and stature to Ewart Brown. Words fail me…………

  67. No she is that delusional Loki. The only thing comparable between the two gentlemen is their skin color.

    She doesn’t understand that Obama inspired millions of individuals from across millions of backgrounds. One just has to look at the crowds he pulled during his European speeches to highlight the man’s appeal. Dr. Brown only appeals to individuals such as herself (18% approval rating testifies to that)that want the racial divide to be maintained and have held a chip on their shoulder for decades now.

  68. But the word bandwagon just sounds so cynical. Like Obama ‘belongs’ to a certain segment of Bermuda and anyone else cannot possibly be a genuine supporter. That’s the way I took it, and that’s why I found it personally offensive.

    As to the reaction to Dr. Brown tee shirts, I suspect they would have sold quite a few. I think you’re saying that the majority of white bermudians would not have bought them though, and I think you’re right. What I think we’ll disagree on is the reason. I don’t have time to get into it right now, but will try to elaborate on why I think that is the case a little later.

  69. “No she is that delusional Loki. The only thing comparable between the two gentlemen is their skin color.”

    It’s about as valid a comparison as equating Nick Griffin with Tony Benn.

  70. Whether you want to accept it or not Dr. Brown and Barack Obama have more in common than any of you would want to believe. Just because you personally dislike the man (Dr. Brown) does not take away from the many attributes that he has. History has recorded that Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, and others were also hated by people like you in their time, however both are now posthumously adored. Remember MLK was assassinated and Mandela imprisoned, not by people who look like me.

    While there are some who hate Dr. Brown, there are many who respect and admire him, not just in Bermuda, but in the U.S. and the Caribbean. I make no apologies for my admiration of Dr. Brown. What you know of him is what you read in the Royal Gazette, neither of you have ever sat down and talked to the man or had a serious talk with anyone who really knows him. It is unfortunate that you hatred stems from reports and editorials in the Royal Gazette.

    Barack Obama also has his enemies. I am sure that there are people who describe him the same way that you describe Dr. Brown.

    As far as the tee shirts are concerned, I was not insinuating that white Bermudians would not have bought them, that’s neither here nor there, what I am saying is that people like you would have described it as sacrilegious.

    If any of you could cite some personal dealings that you or someone you’re connected with have had with Dr. Brown that makes you feel the way you do, I would like to hear it. I’ve never met Barack Obama, and just as you know Dr. Brown through the eyes of the media, I only know Barack Obama through the eyes of the media. The difference is that the world media is kinder to Barack that the Bermuda media is to Dr. Brown.

  71. Lost in flatts,

    Actually i have seen many portuguese who are darker than many black bermudians, who descended from Africans who emigrated to Portugal, so they could be considered Black.

  72. I wonder what the reaction would have been had someone come up with idea to sell Dr. Brown tee shirts during the last election.

    You’re not actually comparing Dr. Brown to Mr. Obama, are you?

    Ms. Furbert, weren’t we having a conversation?

  73. hahahahahahahahahaha….Are you trying to compare Dr. Brown to MLK and Nelon Mandela now??!! You are really crazy inna?…hahahahahaahah…what a joker you are…great entertainment though…hahahahaha…that 18% also includes Black Bdians as well….Probably you voting numerous times over as well….you are hysterical and boring at the same time….

    any answers to the questions above? why is the RG responsible for slow govt reform? Oh that’s right….I apologize…i forget that you make outlandish accusations and then refuse to provide any evidence to back your claims…my apologies…

    Dr. Browm like MLK and NM??!!!…hahahahahahaha…jokes

  74. “Whether you want to accept it or not Dr. Brown and Barack Obama have more in common than any of you would want to believe.”

    “I’ve never met Barack Obama, and just as you know Dr. Brown through the eyes of the media, I only know Barack Obama through the eyes of the media.”

    So then exactly do you know that they have so much in common, if all you know is what you see through US media? You just make it too easy sometimes,,,

  75. “neither of you have ever sat down and talked to the man or had a serious talk with anyone who really knows him.”

    Not true. I’ve had professional dealings with him, well before he was a leading light within the PLP, and my description of those dealings at the time was that “it was like wading through slime”. I stand by that. I have never dealt with someone professionally who I found more distasteful.

  76. LiF – You’re also drawing refences to recent comments that were made to explain Portuguese suppport of the UBP. Again. Life didn’t start in 2007. C’mon folks. White people have historically supported the UBP because it was the ‘white’ party. They didn’t join the PLP because Bermuda was still racially segregated and to do so would have made them social pariahs. Now in recent history white folks have been given an excuse not to support/join the PLP in the form of perceived racially inflammatory comments, etc. But that doesn’t change the fact that things are as they always have been.

    So why would things in 2008 be any different? Harold Darrell was a non-starter in 2007 as was Khalid Wasi in 2008. Does this mean that we are more entrenched in our race-politics than ever? Fearful of conceding power?

  77. Ms. Furbert,

    Not wanting to trivialise this at all, because I think it is important, but purely from their policies supported, speeches given, campaigns run and messages conveyed, I think that the list of things Dr. Brown and Mr. Obama share, politically, is rather small.

    As you yourself said earlier, Obama won by uniting people under a common banner of America, regardless of race or creed. He didn’t ‘make people uncomfortable’ or shout to the hills about oppression. His campaign was one of hope.

    Dr. Brown won by only catering to one group of people, to the exclusion of the other. His message was one of revenge, of retribution, of ‘our’ time versus ‘their’ time. I don’t doubt that he can be seen as great figure of black power and achievement, but I contest very heavily that his legacy will ever be viewed as healing or bringing together his people.

    I would say the only thing they both have in common politically is that their opposition was viewed as representing a legacy of bad government and poor decisions.

  78. @ CO – I wasn’t justifying the Portuguese vote in response to your comments, rather just because I don’t like being lumped into a racial group as Ken decided to do.

    My response to your comments is above, that the only way to stop the battening down of legacy parties is to get rid of them. Until then both are just as bad as each other, in terms of blind voting.

  79. @ 9ps – I don’t think that Dr. Brown’s approach is wholly different from Martin Luther King’s.

    It is entirely different from Nelson Mandela’s though.

    However, if you care to back up why Dr. Brown, in his short time as premier of Bermuda, deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as those two, Ms. Furbert, I would love to hear it.

    Do you count Jennifer Smith and Alex Scott as equals to Dr. Brown? If not, why not?

  80. CO,

    As I have said many times before the older generation of this island is stuck in their ways and mindset, and hence will never change their voting preferences.

    No one has been given an excuse in my generation. I wasn’t able to vote until 2000. I didn’t start paying attention to politics until the 2003 election. My family is far from political and I am the only one that ever brings up politics and when I do I get told to shut up cause they don’t want to be involved and it is boring. When I started looking at my options I had the PLP preaching that ALL whites are inherently evil slave masters whose mind set has no changed no matter the generation. I am not going to vote for a party who believes that using such inflammatory and divisive language against me as a person when not one of their candidates has ever spoken to me. I really fail to see how you can call these quotes “perceived.” Just like your quote “cmon folks” speak the truth about whites voting habits, do the same in regards to the divisive speak spewed by the PLP candidates.

    So I take your comment about we have been “given an excuse” as a veiled incinuation that I am no different then the past whites of this island (or Portuguese Bdian to some). We (younger generation) didn’t make those quotes up in our head. They were said, constantly, by the PLP candidates. Thus as I asked in post #53, what do you expect us (younger generation) to do? Run to a party that doesn’t respect us and doesn’t me as a Bdian (i.e. Furbert’s infamous indigneous people LtoE). All that bullsh*t just alienates another generation of voters. That’s all.

  81. 9ps. I made the comment that whites no have an excuse, because they have consistently voted UBP. Even pre-racial rhetoric. Even when the early UBP was perhaps more distant from the average white self-interests in that the UBPers were the ‘merchant’ class. But yet still supported them when purely on a social level the working man PLP was probably a closer resemblance.

    So now the talk about race gives white folk some sort of absolution. They don’t vote for the PLP because of things entirely beyond their own control. They don’t vote for the PLP because the PLP is racist. But because they have never, and would never vote for anyone other than the UBP. (as long as the present party system continues as it is)

    Hell, the last couple of elections even saw the death of the NLP. Cuz folks weren’t voting for them.

    Guess what. White Bermuda didn’t vote PLP in 2003… Or 1998… prior to ‘those quotes’. Stop playing like the world started in 2007 with remarks about plantations.

    And quite frankly, for all his ‘divisiveness’, apart from the Eunach comment, I don’t think Dr Brown has said anything that isn’t backed up by facts. Whether you choose to accept them or not is a different story. Including his recent comments about the voting patterns of white Bermudians… White Bermudians vote for the UBP. Now what.

  82. Oh. Incidentally, I don’t see anybody up in arms about Ashfield Devents use of the term ‘slave traders’ to describe drug dealers in the black community. Guess it’s only when the shoe fits huh? Surely the drug dealers must be all bent out of shape this morning having been likened to such. Probably going to start voting for the UBP now.

  83. @ CO – I don’t get your ‘slave traders’ bit. I would have thought drug dealers would not want to be likened to slave traders, but what do I know. I doubt very much they care what an MP thinks about them. Nor do I think they take an active interest in politics.

    And to be honest I can’t take you seriously if you’re going to try and play the line that Dr. Brown doesn’t make comments that are anything other than factual and with no malice, and it’s only paranoid whites and the media who make a big old fuss out of nothing. Yes. It’s all in our heads. Dr. Brown is actual a big fan of the whites, and cares deeply about their plight. Erm. No.

  84. I actually dont mind the term. I am a fervent opposer to drug dealers and do not support their ‘trade’ at all. In my opinion they are just as bad as slave traders and the people who commit other immoral acts.

  85. Lost In Flatts,

    You have not read where I stated that “Obama won by united people under a common banner of America…..”. While I admire Barack Obama, and love to hear him speak, I also admire his campaign team. Barack Obama won the election because he had a top notch campaign strategist.

    As you see it, Dr. Brown won by only catering to one group of people, but that’s not how I and many others see the PLP’s victories in the last three elections. You and others seem to forget that Dr. Brown has only been the Premier since November 2006 and a year after his election to the leadership of the PLP he took the country to the polls and the PLP was again victorious in spite of the venom that is continuously spewed about him.

    In 1998, the PLP won because many black voters who normally would not have voted came out to vote, in fact they were the first at the polls. I understand that same thing happened in America with black voters.

    I am certain that Barack Obama will agree that the “black power” days in America and elsewhere was necessary. If we did not have the “black power” days, I hardly think the world be celebrating the election of Barack Obama to the presidency of the United States.

    As far as Dr. Brown leaving a legacy of healing and brining together his people, I don’t think that that Bermudian leader has been born yet, not as I see it anyway. Healing can only take place once we all have admited that we have a problem and some people in Bermuda don’t want to admit that.

    I didn’t say anything about Barack Obama and Dr. Brown having anything in common politically, both were just ordinary men who rose to the top in their respective careers before they became politicians. There is no way you can compare America’s politics to Bermuda’s.

  86. “There is no way you can compare America’s politics to Bermuda’s.” I agree, which raises an interesting question about comments by Dr. Brown. But we’ll leave that for now.

    While new voters were undoubtedly part of Obama’s success, the majority of those voting for him were white previous voters. It was only through coming up with a campaign that didn’t alienate anyone that he could win. Perhaps you’ll argue that his political reality was one where he needed whites, so included them, whereas Dr. Brown does not need whites, and therefore does not. I.e., both are just politicians looking to get elected and therefore appealed to the voters they most needed. I don’t doubt that this is how the campaign coordinators will have viewed it.

    I just find Obama to be much more about hope, inclusion and the future. Maybe that’s a personal thing.

    I guess our fundamental disagreement comes back to a question you posed, about why there weren’t white Bermudians sporting Dr. Brown t-shirts. Your argument is that those wearing the t-shirts are to blame, for being close-minded and stuck in the past. My argument is that the subject of those t-shirts is to blame.

    Either way, the fact that we have such polar opposite views clearly indicates something is wrong somewhere.

  87. “And to be honest I can’t take you seriously if you’re going to try and play the line that Dr. Brown doesn’t make comments that are anything other than factual and with no malice, and it’s only paranoid whites and the media who make a big old fuss out of nothing. Yes. It’s all in our heads. Dr. Brown is actual a big fan of the whites, and cares deeply about their plight. Erm. No.”

    Exactly. So where is the evidence about the plantation remarks, neo-fascists that want to lock us all up, a return to slavery and shackles to our feet? The RG just didn’t wake up one day and say “hey lets insert this quote here and this one over here,” they were said. Do you honestly find nothing wrong and divisive about comments like these? Continue what you want to think about young white voters in this country. It’s attitudes such as that (labelling based on historical ignorance) that is alienating potential supporters that don’t look like you. And you have yet to tell me what I should do to make the PLP feel better about me.

  88. Lif – what is the plight of white folks, exactly?

    Since this is all about paring down the reality of the race argument, what social or practical impediment do white folks face in modern bermuda because they’re white?

    Statistically, economically, empirically, there are none. There are obviously some emotional impediments that mustn’t be ignored, but they must also be weighed appropriately.

    Being black however means that, in modern bermuda I.e. right now, you’re more likely to be underpaid, incarcerated, have diabetes, be divorced, etc.

    So, as I see it, giving special attention to the one group isn’t really at the expense of the other. Since the other group doesn’t require special attention – they’re(depending on your pov) at best just fine, at worst unfairly successful. It’s why president-elect obama spent decades in chicago working especially for and specifically with who he did: poor black folk, who were, largely, poor because they were black.

    Swop out black and white for women and men and I doubt you’d consider the extra-care-for-the-disenfranchised-group perspective to be offensive, or anything other than good, moral sense.

    Why doesn’t the race inequity hit you the same way? Or, if it does, how should it be discussed to help you feel comfortable expressing such and purposefully acting against it?

    Thanks for the dialogue.

  89. “Oh. Incidentally, I don’t see anybody up in arms about Ashfield Devents use of the term ’slave traders’ to describe drug dealers in the black community.”

    He has a point in relating drug dealers to slave traders. I have seen the abuse of drugs throughout my family. I have watched family members literally become a “slave” to their addiction. They would do anything to get the next fix. But in essence all drug dealers can be labelled “slave traders” because drug abuse happens in all segments of the community. Not just the black community.

  90. “Guess what. White Bermuda didn’t vote PLP in 2003…”

    There was still race baiting in teh 2003 election. That was my initial introduction to BDA politics. If it makes you feel better I can research examples where race played a major part of the election. So no my political interests didn’t start in 2007, but in 2003 with the same sh*t that is happenign today.

  91. “Being black however means that, in modern bermuda I.e. right now, you’re more likely to be underpaid, incarcerated, have diabetes, be divorced, etc.”

    A better education system is a cure for the former two points. But the individuals and parents also have to view school as a benefit and not just a youth center where they spend a few hours a day before heading off to act up somewhere else.

    As for the latter points I am not too sure as to how the government should be called upon to fix these issues. If it makes you feel better four members of my immediately family have diabetes and everyone is divorced/remarried, and I am white, or Portuguese Bdian!!

  92. 9ps… I’m not saying that the use of such language has not been manipulated at times to serve as a political tool. It has. But only becuase of the underlying truths do they hit home with a lot of black folk. Whether we agree with the manner in which they are said, or the need to say them may be one thing. But the underlying facts still remain. They are still sccurate. A lot of white wealth on the island is as a result of a legacy of the 40 thieves and black disenfranchisment (a la grant gibbons racist dog speech)… White Bermudians vote for the UBP. Fact.

  93. CO – if you can draw a line between the the last two elements of your diatribe you might find some causality.

  94. “But the underlying facts still remain. They are still sccurate”

    I just can’t seem to see how a quote of returning shackles back to one’s feet and they want flog us and a they want to return us to slavery as being accurate. Is there some sort of white supremacist movement in BDA which has stated these goals? Because I have not heard once any white people of my generation state that these are goals that they will like to be achieved in regards to black Bdians. The fact that white Bermudians vote for UBP is true, but the dozens of other racial quotes utilized aren’t at all. Unless you are aware of something that I am not.

  95. Oh and by the way my last name isn’t a Gibbons, Trimingham, Cooper etc. We are not all descendants of teh “40 Thieves.” This myth that all whites are inherently wealthy is just plain wrong. If you need evidence come and meet my family, we are all just a bunch of “gees” driving truck, cutting trees and building houses. So this perception that we are all born with sort of silver spoon up our asses, well lets just put it this way, the doctor forgot about my family.

  96. Ken – I agree. I think the use is appropriate as well. Just seems like certain individuals get up in arms when certain racial language is used.

    And just like 9ps can ‘see’ how the context and use is appropriate, a lot of blacks can draw the appropriate references to the ‘plantation’ comments, without it being taken in the literal sense.

    So according to you, 9ps, white Bermuda didn’t vote PLP in 2003 because of race-baiting? What about 1998 then. 93? 89?

    I’ve said it before. Politics in Bermuda is about race… and more spefically (or generally), about class disguised as race. Wealthy/majority white have always voted UBP… Poor/Working Class/majority black have always voted PLP. It has nothing to do with who says what. Never has. So why are we pretending it matters?

  97. “So according to you, 9ps, white Bermuda didn’t vote PLP in 2003 because of race-baiting? What about 1998 then. 93? 89?”

    As I said before many times, even in this thread, I agree that old white BDA will never change their voting preferences. I was referring particularly to my first experience, as stated above, in taking an interest in BDA politics.

    “Ken – I agree. I think the use is appropriate as well. Just seems like certain individuals get up in arms when certain racial language is used. ”

    There is a big difference in labelling drug dealers (who are black and white in this island) as slave traders and having the leader of a country label a WHOLE segment of the population based on experiences from well over a 100 years ago. I know you see that, I have read many of your posts and you are a sensible and reasoned individual. Apples and oranges…

  98. Hi someguy. I think you highlight a relatively under-voiced opinion on web forums – that whites have money so they shouldn’t need a helping hand from government. What I would say in response is that the answer depends on what the role of government is. If it is about providing a framework in which the populace can suceed, then they should try to represent everyone. If it is to take care of its citizens, then yes the focus should be on the poor.
    I would ask what the lower middle class whites are supposed to do, but I guess they’re unimportant. Should have done more with that silver spoon I suppose.

    To be honest you’re right about me. I don’t need the government to give me things, I’m lucky enough to be healthy educated and employed.

    What pisses me off is that our current administration isn’t providing solutions to the poor. They’re blaming the whites. If the plp had come into power and fixed education, lowered crime and promoted a happy bermuda, they’d get my vote. Instead we blame education failures on everyone else. Violent crime is at record levels. Tourism is sucking it up.

    If I looked around and thought poor bermuda was better off, I’d at least be okay with the plp.

    But I don’t think things are any better.if they were, the plp could denigrate my race to their hearts content, at least my life would be better. As it stands, things still suck and I also have to put with racial abuse.

  99. 9ps – thanks for sharing your personal experience, but individual anecdotes aren’t really representative of anything other you. not contemporary social trends, not documentaed historical fact. that’s like saying because you and your family are all around 6’1″, that Bermudians are normally tall people.

    in any/all post-slavery societies, black folk have always been disproportionately under-educated, regardless of when. beyond that, the 2007 CURE stats demonstrate that black folk with degrees make less than their white equivalents, even when they have higher levels of tertiary education. do you see the difference?

    also, the reason that black folk are disproportionately unhealthy(see diabetes) is partly because they were disproportionately poor for centuries, as a result of government policy. people with less money are people with less options, inside the fridge/icebox and out. the dysfunction of black families is also related directly to bermudian government policy. consider, for example, the following laws:

    – freed male slaves under 40 had to leave Bermuda within 3 months. if they ignored the law, they could be imprisoned or executed. if they returned, they could be re-enslaved. can’t maintain a family under those circumstances, which were state mandated.

    – black folk couldn’t will property. as in, parents couldn’t pass down land to their children. difficult to build a real, healthy family legacy under those circumstances. again, government policy.

    – black folks were subject to duty taxes for performing/practicing certain trades(mechanics, masonry, etc.)while white folks had no such restrictions. another law making it more difficult for black families to earn money and, in turn, generate opportunity for further progress for their family.

    those laws, amongst others, all by definition and purpose damaged the integrity of the black Bermudian family unit. that’s where we all come from, that’s how we arrived here today. the inequity has carried on as enculturated habit. us doing what we’re doing, living how we’re living is clearly not enough to correct the imbalances. the extraordinary damage that was done to our society and lives by defining access to opportunity and resources along racial lines will take extraordinary effort to correct it. essentially, practical and perceptive overcompensation that benefits the marginalised group. we’re talking the sort of overcompensation that caused the problem in the first place, just with morally defensible intent and inclusive, broadly socially informed management.

    thoughts?

  100. 9ps… 1998 is not old Bermuda. If old Bermuda were dying out, then pre-2003 (just cuz you use this as a reference for ‘race-baiting’), you would have seen a gradual increase in white support for the PLP, would you not?

    And this is where we differ. EB is not labeling a whole race based on something that happened 100 years ago. He is labeling a system based on the realities of today and the disparities that continue.

    And actually Ashfield Devent’s comments were directed to black drug dealers. So it’s alright to draw references as long as it’s not black people drawing historical reference to whites? I mean, yes, there is admittedly a difference. And there is the double standard being applied: ie, black politician can make comment referencing black drug dealers to West African slave traders; but black politician can not make a comment linking white wealth on the island as evidence of a legacy of racism.

    Fair enough.

  101. CO,

    You and EB win. Thank you for revealing what I didn’t know about myself. I am a rabid racist that wishes to lock you all up, but I just don’t know it yet.

    The realities of today? Oh you mean that plantation that Michael Dunkley is buildign which I rode past this morning and the new shackle factory opened up by Grant Gibbons. Now I see what you mean about EB’s comments being accurate and relevant to today.

    You will not see a gradual increase of white support for the PLP from my generation as long as they talk the sh*t they do. But go ahead and blame it on my parents for making me racist and hence the real reason I don’t vote for the PLP.

    It seems that individuals such as Ms. Furbert, Mr. Chapman and yourself know me and why i act a certain way better than I know myself. I mean you guys are always telling me/us the real reason why I/us don’t do this and I/us don’t do that.

    Someguy,

    I know who you are based on your writing style now. I have nothing to say to you, because you won’t listen and anything I say is racist anyways. Try posting under my name again to get your point across or go back on BDASUX and call everyone pale faces. That always works for you.

  102. 9ps… Oh, the part about white Bermudians in 2008 practicing reactionary racism… in reaction to reactionary racism by blacks? Hm. Now THERE’S progress! No… by realities, I meant the fact that blacks, as someguy pointed out are more prone to be paid less, receive sub-standard education, healthcare, etc, subject to higher rates of incarceration, etc. That’s what I meant by realities. Cuz those ARE the realities. Those are the disparities that I’m talking about. And no, I’m not holding you or anybody else personally responsible. This is a system that was put in place by our ancestors. I do however hold us all responsible for dismantling it.

  103. 9ps – um. i don’t ordinarily post on a general basis, or call anyone a paleface on any specific instance. you can disbelieve me if you’d like, but i’m reasonably sure you’re reasonable enough to take my word for it.

    if not, hope you’re able to have a good day.

    if so, actually read what i posted and tell me what you think about it. trust me, i’m not lying to you. there couldn’t be less of a point in doing so. frankly, i don’t have the time.

  104. Don’t look at me to help you dismantle it. Why would a racist like me want to do that? Kinda defeats my whole purpose in life, well the purpose that you and others tell me is my real goal.

    Anyways, have a great night.

    PS: If you do hold us ALL responsible, then you must see that divisive and racial rhetoric actually hgas adverse effects on bringing the community together to help eradicate all forms of racism and prejudices. Or maybe not…

  105. 9ps – hm. this just occured to me.

    my writing style is, as any objective observer will be able to determine rather quickly, nowhere near that of the person that i think you’re comparing me to. no better, no worse – just different.

    so, what’s the similarity? honestly, i’m interested to know. my belief is that the reason you’ve confused myself and the person you think i am since we both are reasonably specific in discussing the facts of bermudian governmental policy that oppressed black folks. my justification for that belief is that my only two posts on this site have been principally concerned with those details. so, that’s the only point of comparison to draw from.

    your conclusion, false as it is, implies the two following problems:

    a)people who bring up the reality of bermudian history and what it’s done and does to black folks are racists simply by virtue of the information they’re sharing.

    b)you only have any real conversations about that fundamental truth of the country you love so much online with strangers who, generally, all agree with you.

    of course, i could be incorrectly and inappropriately reaching on both those conclusions in exactly the same way you are as to my identity. but, based on our short interaction, i really don’t think so.

  106. Someguy,

    Sorry I don’t believe you. The individual that I think you are coincedentally employs the same writing style and just happens to be posting on BDASUX at the same time. After the stuff that this individual pulled in regards to me posting on here last time, results in me of having no time in entertaining or respecting such an individual.

    If I am wrong then I apologize and JS can confirm that it isn’t who I think it is.

  107. “your conclusion, false as it is, implies the two following problems:”

    Well we all know where you got your penchant for lying from at least? Apples, falling and trees come to mind when I think of you two…

  108. 9ps… very mature approach you’re taking here. You have a swell evening as well.

    Of course divisive language is counter-productive to racial harmony… or at least surface racial harmony. That’s why Barack Obama was able to win the US election. He didn’t talk about race in the context of disparity or inequality. He talked about inclusiveness… but that doesn’t really change the reality. Not acknowledging the racial divide won’t magically make it go away. It just allows it to fester. But then again, being confronted with it scares people back into their comfort zones, corners and groups. Which is why, as you have pointed out, whites won’t turn out for the PLP in droves. Totally explainable in the context of accountability and absolution.

  109. ha. this is absolutely extraordinary.

    fine. if you need js to verify it, that’s shameful and rather sad. but, i’m sure he will do as soon as he can. frankly, i could have other participants in this conversation vouch for my specificity, but i doubt that’ll be enough for you.

    anyone who disagrees with you on race and engages you in that disagreement has to be one of two people – both of whom you’ve written off completely.

    simply extraordinary.

  110. 9ps –

    Nope, two completely different writing styles. (note the absence of the substitute z’s for s’ and lack of the use of the term haterz.) I’d be willing to bet my last dollar that Someguy is not tigga. But it seems you’re more preoccupied with his/her identity in the interest of avoiding convo, than actually engaging. But hey, whatever.

  111. “9ps… very mature approach you’re taking here. You have a swell evening as well.”

    Well it’s kind of hard to have any sort of “Big Conversation” when all the responses are “no that’s not the reason you vote why you do, this is the reason you vote why you do.” I am trying to explain why myself and other young voters have reacted to the language spoken by the current administration. And the response is “nonono, you are white so you are predisposed to vote with the rest of the whites because of your inherent racist tendencies, it has nothing to do with the crap that we talk about you” It is quite discouraging and doesn’t lead to any constructive debate. Hence why I went to one Big Conversation and probably will not return, as all it turned out to be was a bitchfest against whites with no sort of progressive dialogue being sought by the moderators or the attendees.

    But CO, I have always enjoyed reading your posts as they are fair, balanced and to the point. And I will continue to read them as you have enlightened me in certain povs that hadn’t occurred to me as of yet. So keep up the good work and I wasn’t being sarcastic about haveing a good evening either.

  112. Someguy – Actually, if it’s any consolation 9ps has managed to lumped me in with Ms Furbert and Vance so his/her radar is obviously a sketchy today. 😉

  113. 9ps… I acknowledged about 20 posts ago that I don’t expect white voters to vote for the PLP in the present climate. Hell, I even stated that my original post was with the allegiance of the white voter with the UBP even in the face of alternatives (in this case the alternative being the Independent candidate, not the PLP.)

    Am I wrong though in thinking that the white voter is pre-disposed to voting for the UBP? Recent racial rhetoric aside. Seriously interested in your point of view.

  114. Someguy,

    I already apologized if it wasn’t who i think it was. But the stgructure of your paragraphs are quite similar.

    “anyone who disagrees with you on race and engages you in that disagreement has to be one of two people – both of whom you’ve written off completely.”

    Yeah, i have written them off completely. Have you seen what they have posted in the past? If a white guy responded to you in that manner I expect you to also write them off completely as well. Take the rhetoric being discussed and multiply it by 100 and that’s what you get?

    In regards to the past Governmental policies, no one on here has ever doubted the damage that they have inflicted upon the black community. And yes the Government should enact policies which level the playing field. But is the racial rhetoric necessary? Is it necessary to attempt to polarise teh community in order to benefit one segment? I mean for example why did EB need to make his comment last month in the House? Was there a debate on Mccain and Obama and who would vote for who? What puropse was such a comment supposed to achieve?

  115. Casual – thanks for the clarity. no idea if 9ps will notice your assessment or, more importantly, trust your judgement. but, the attempt is appreciated. 😉

    9ps – i apologize if the content or pitch of my post approached the kind of tone that has frustrated you in prior conversations that i haven’t been privy or party to. however, i don’t think anything i wrote entered that space.

    you just wrote me off without even considering any of the ideas presented. why?

  116. I can’t believe anyone is arguing that white folks DON’T traditionally vote UBP.
    I would have thought that was a given… and BEING a given is what confuses me about the Premier’s statement.

    I STILL don’t know what Sen. McCain and the UBP have in common, or how folks traditionally voting for the UBP equates for a vote for him… or against Mr. Obama and no one seems to want to address that.

    CO,

    As you know, I’d LOVE for folks to address the disparity and the divide, but what then? This is the problem I have.
    Personally, I don’t see Dr. Brown’s comments as addressing the divide. I wish someone in power would!
    THEN, maybe, we could all have an honest and open conversation.

    *sigh* sorry… getting frustrated.

  117. “Am I wrong though in thinking that the white voter is pre-disposed to voting for the UBP? Recent racial rhetoric aside. Seriously interested in your point of view.”

    As mentioned before yes, but this pre-disposition is much much stronger in the psyches of the older generations. You cannot teach an old dog new tricks as they say.

    My generation has not grown up in such a segregated BDA. I went to public school, Sea Cadets played cricket and played football for mini-minors up to minors (and no not BAA or Hotels). I have served drinks all over BDA, not just in the “white” bars. I cannot speak for all white people, as you can’t for all black people. But I know that my peers are totally turned off by the PLP and their racial antics. So any chance of securing that vote is further diminished when they label us as “slave masters” with inherent racist tendencies. I am from a labor family and am the first one to attend university. Sh*t even one of my immediate family members, who is unionised, said he wants to vote for the PLP becasue of the labor aspect but can’t see why they need to continue on with the white bashing techniques.

    PS: i lumped you with Ms. Furbert because in the previous posts I interpreted you as saying that even if the PLP came across as being an all inclusive party I still wouldn’t vote for them due to my “whiteness.” I know you are nothing like either of those two individuals, but your comments earlier were very similar to their thought process.

  118. 9ps – the history of bermudian white folk ignoring bermudian black folk who discuss race, regardless of their tone and commitment to inclusive engagement, is long and wide. it was rarely done on the merits of the specific argument presented, rather, on the topic itself. considering that context and the reality of how white folk have repressed black expression on the subject of color classification, i believe we’re all obligated to overcompensate in this conversation. we must overcome our initial sensitivity in being individually hurt by the sharing of others to ensure that every truth gets a chance to breathe, particularly those coming from black people. since, again, they’re the folk who have been institutionally muzzled since humans have existed on our islands.

    but, i’m very encouraged to hear you suggest that the government should enact policies to level the playing field. would you say you supported the draft workforce equity act, then? however, i’d be willing to bet good money you wrote the legislation off in principle and practice in essentially the same way for essentially the same reasons you dismissed me today.

    it seems like you can definitely talk the talk, but only when people who agree with you are the other half of the conversation. as far as you walking the walk goes, i really don’t know.

    as far as “racial rhetoric” goes – what does that phrase mean to you? you use it an awful lot in some cases that just don’t seem to apply to me. to take it a step further, this implies that you don’t use it places where it would apply. in my estimation, of course.

    i appreciate the clarity, as i don’t want to misunderstand you.

  119. “you just wrote me off without even considering any of the ideas presented. why?”

    Because I assumed (which was wrong) that you were an individual that is well just nasty. Some of things that has come out of this individual’s mouth are unforgivable and disgusting. Again i apologize.

  120. 9ps – I agree that less and less Bermudians are able to identify with racial rhetoric in the sense that the number of us that grew up post-Segregation continues to increase whilst those who can identify directly with segregation, etc, are decreasing. Which is why I think that the PLP will have to change their tune. And quick. UNLESS, the gap between middle and lower class continues to widen leading to an increase in the number of individuals identifying their plight as race-related as opposed to strictly class related.

    Also, I can only make the inference as to who you, or any other white Bermudian would vote for based on who individuals ALWAYS vote for. And based on the fact that even non-PLP alternatives are not viewed as viable. That is very troubling. Because that reinforces the stereotypes, the perceptions, and the divide.

    I agree that the race talk from the PLP has had the [perhaps] unintentional effect of totally alienating the white Bermudian voter. Which is unfortunate and has probably set race relations back quite some bit. However I see EB’s comments as simply airing our dirty laundry, rather than dirtying it up. I don’t think he’s making it up. He’s just talking about the elephant in the room.

  121. “as far as “racial rhetoric” goes – what does that phrase mean to you? ”

    Claiming that all whites want to “lock us up,” they want to “flog us,” “return to the plantation,” “return to shackles on our feet,” references to us still maintaining a “slave master mentality,” “or post-traumatic slave master mentality” that whites probaly had something to do with the assassination plot against Obama. That whites would not vote for Obama, but for the “other guy.” Asking a caller on a radio show debate on independence if they are white, then when respond yes have a Senator promptly hang up on you. A PLP candidate in the last election stating that teh PLP doesn’t need the white vote to get into power and the individuals relative stating that white BDA opinions are irrelevant and that we just shut up as we don’t matter anymore.

    These are just a few of the top of my head.

    In regards to the worplace equity act, you are doing the same thing that i just complained to CO about. That is assuming you know my answer before I even respond. Stop labelling me, cause you have no idea about who I am or how I think. I believe that this sort of legislation is necessary to level the playing field. I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the proposed act, so i really cannot comment on it in depth.

  122. “9ps – apology accepted. i’m still wondering why you immediately leapt to that conclusion, though.”

    Simply through the structure of your paragraphs. That is all.

  123. 9ps – far as i can tell, this is one of the central misunderstandings in this conversation that actually gets strangers the further you go with it.

    the statements you refer to seem to fit one of two groups:

    a) the plantation/shackles/lock us up/neo-colonialist/etc. comments were not describing white bermudians. they were describing the potential of a ubp government. since the ubp government was the political manifestation of a desire to impede social justice and the predecessors thereof were the protectors and proposers of segregation and slavery in Bermuda, it’s pretty easy to see why the association between the ubp and the oppression of black folk would exist. and, as you’ve described, be referenced as such.

    now, since white bermudians overwhelmingly support the ubp, i imagine that’s where the offense comes in. people call the group you support and believe in racist, then it’s gotta sting or confuse. but, since we should all be able to accept what the ubp(at least) represents for black folk, the antipathy towards that organisation should be understandable. therefore, the statements expressing that distrust should be very easy to contextualize.

    b)you’re referring to two people who engage on the local blogosphere as being representative of government policy/black perspective. which is weird in principle, let alone in practice. *shakes head*

    in any event, i wouldn’t take my worldview as being representative of black folk in bermuda. neither would i take you and lif’s perspective as being representative of white folk, ubp supporters or otherwise, in bermuda. it’s unfair extrapolation, just wouldn’t do.

    neither should you take any two individual voices as being representative of either the plp or black folks. that kind of false, extremely forced presumptive homogenity is beneath you and the future we all require. so, using those folks as examples of why you’re dismissive of the plp is inappropriate. it’d be like, for example, using ted stevens as being representative of the republican party or william jefferson of the democrats. or, conversely, barack obama as representative of the democrats or ron paul of the republicans. the truth is, by definition, far nearer the middle. chasing those specific points of reference and basing your opinion of the general group on them is an unfair oversimplification.

    as far as the workplace equity act goes, if you’re unfamiliar with it’s ins and outs as someone who’s professed to be concerned with the future of it’s country…it’s kind of hard to reconcile those two ideas, to be honest.

    either you want equity, or you don’t. if you do, then you’ll stay in the loop. this is what i mean about talking the talk versus walking the walk. do you understand?

  124. “…a) the plantation/shackles/lock us up/neo-colonialist/etc. comments were not describing white bermudians. they were describing the potential of a ubp government….”
    Pull the other one! Puleeaaassseee tell me you don’t actually believe that, or even expect anyone else to.

  125. slowhand – yep. and, on top of that, i explain why.

    “since the ubp government was the political manifestation of a desire to impede social justice and the predecessors thereof were the protectors and proposers of segregation and slavery in Bermuda, it’s pretty easy to see why the association between the ubp and the oppression of black folk would exist. and, as you’ve described, be referenced as such.”

    do you just flatly disagree with that explanation? or, more to the point, can you understand why a black bermudian could arrive at and be comfortable with that conclusion?

  126. slowhand – that is exactly how those comments were perceived by myself and a number of other individuals. That’s why we were seen to be ‘defending’ the comments when they were made. We could identify with them in the context they were being used.

  127. Voting Stats for Demcrats (Obama) Republican (McCain)

    By Race:
    White 47% 51%
    Blacks 89%
    Latino 69%
    Asian 62%
    Other 55%

    By Age
    18-29 60%
    30-44 53%
    45-59 53%
    60+ 50%

  128. Someguy – isn’t that a gross generalization of the UBP and anyone who is or was connected to it. I appreciate that as a PLP appointee you have a particular view point and opinion, but to state it as fact is just wrong. It would be the same as saying that the PLP is the political manifestation of the more extreme version of the Black Beret Cadre, which it is not.

    Some black people in Bermuda may feel that way about the UBP, and some Bermudians (black and white) may have similar feelings about the PLP.

    History will always be interpreted differently depending on perspective, and just because one person has a particular point of view, does not make it fact.

    Pitts Bay

  129. mambochazbaps,

    How many times did Dr. Brown fail the medical exams in America? How many times did he fail it in Bermuda? Was he the only doctor that failed the medical exam in Bermuda?

    If there was a bar exam in Bermuda, how many Bermudians lawyers would have failed it?

  130. 9ps,

    Up until this point I have ignored your rantings, but the more I read them, the more I really feel sorry for you. You have stated that you only became eligible to vote in 2000, which means that you’re 26 years old. You also said that your family doesn’t like to discuss poltics, unfortunate for you. As I see it, your knowledge of Bermuda politics has come from the Royal Gazette and blogs like this one. Unfortunate again. Most of the young people I know that are the same age as you (or a little older) have learned about Bermuda politics at the dinner table, in the classroom, and sometimes in church. My suggestion to you is arrange a meeting with the Leader of the Opposition, Kim Swan, and another one with the Premier, Dr. Brown. I would also suggest that you attend meetings that are held by both parties, and then you should be less confused then you are today.

  131. So slightly off topic, but as it’s becoming a person bone to pick for me, does anyone on here see the problem with the following paragraph:
    “Today, it was revealed that Former UBP Leader Wayne Furbert has resigned the party in disgust for their unwillingness to change and former UBP Leader Michael Dunkley is in bed with the old, aristocratic “40 Thieves.”

    Reading that, does it not sound like Wayne Furbert has resigned because of Michael, who IS in bed with these mythical 40 thieves?

    I wouldn’t have a problem if this was some forum post, done in a hurry by someone with a passing interest. Because then I’d be able to say, no, Wayne resigned and Dunkley was ACCUSED of something. Not only are the two completely seperate, but I’m sure you just accidently juxtaposed them. And we’d laugh and agree that it was funny how it reads, and how fortunate we are that not many people saw it.

    But. It’s an official post, by the offical webmaster of the official PLP, the government of Bermuda website. That the whole world can see. And that no one can ammend or add a clarifying or questioning comment.

    All I hope is that whoever reads those blog entries reads enough of them to dismiss them as being written by a sad, vindictive, childish author who is more concerned with giving himself high-fives by misquoting and juxtaposing out of context to make an obselete party look bad than he is with helping the PLP move Bermuda forward.

  132. LostInFlatts, have you only just worked out that the official PLP blog deals almost exclusively in weapons-grade dishonesty and ludicrously hypocritical spin? The outright lies disseminated by the official PLP blog are numerous and well-documented throughout the Bermuda blogosphere.

  133. Lost In Flatts,

    I don’t see that paragraph from the PLP’s website anymore ridiculous than this one from the Royal Gazette “Premier Ewart Brown’s political campaigner Andre Curtis’ company has been named in connection with an alleged securties fraud…..”

    Both writers are citing two people who are involved in the same organisation, although neither situation has anything to do with the other. You are correct, Wayne Furbert’s resignation has nothing to do with Michael Dunkley’s bid to take over as president of the Mid Ocean Club, just as Andre Curtis’ alleged securities fraud has nothing to do with Dr. Brown’s premiership.

    How about every time the Royal Gazette writes something about Philip Butterfield and then refer to him as the Premier’s brother? I guess that’s acceptable. Is it acceptable that each time the editor of the Royal Gazette refers to Dr. Brown’s home, he uses the descriptive “luxurious home”? I’ve never seen reference to any other MP’s home as being luxurious, but I know that many are living in luxurious homes. In fact, most doctors that I know who have been practising as long as Dr. Brown live in luxurious homes, but I guess that’s okay for them, but not for the Premier of Bermuda who also happens to be a doctor.

  134. I think with Ewart its his own fault as everyone knows he loves to show off his bling home…

    Maybe the media is subtly making the point that they are mildly surprised that EB has in the last few years metamorphosed from someone who was on every creditor’s Christmas card list to a multi property/boat/business “owner”.

    As the PLP website would say, Premier is handsomely wealthy AND lots of contracts still go untendered to non unionized businesses.

  135. mambochazbaps,

    How would the media know about Dr. Brown’s credit history? How do you know about it? Do you have information about other Members of Parliament credit history as well? Would you want to make that public?

    For your information, unions all over the world are not interested in unionising businesses where employees are treated fairly. Bob Richards’ company is not unionised, neither is Dunkely’s Dairy. Do you have a problem with that?

  136. I just paid attention during the BHC affair and also if you’ve lived here long enough you end up being, getting married to or working with somebody’s creditor. Its a small place.

    Last time I looked neither Bob or Michael were stuffing envelopes for Ewart.

  137. @ Ms Furbert – so you hold the plp website in the same contempt as you do the RG then? The fact that you don’t like the way its done by one party justifies another doing it? I only hit him cause he hit me first?

    Mature.

    Both are bad. Though if the title had simply read andre curtis is being accuse… I would probably asked who he was.

  138. “unions all over the world are not interested in unionising businesses where employees are treated fairly”
    So is the BIU willing to exit from shops that have a history of good employee relations?

  139. Pitts Bay – it’s a ham and eggs generalisation, to be sure. But, the assessment of the ubp as a purposefully constructed bulwark against social justice is grounded in enough historical fact, legitimate experience and hard reality for it to feel true to and for black folks. I’m not suggesting that this perspective is the only valid perspective to be had on the group. I can understand and appreciate more generous or positive points of view as they relate to the ubp, but based on my life I’m incapable of sharing them.

    All I’m asking is why it’s so difficult to understand what makes black folks’ antipathy towards the opposition so guttural, forceful and legitimate. Once you get that, fully acknowledge and appreciate the contemporary distrust without attempting to dismiss the reality of it’s source, then we can start the business of deconstructing it. Since, at that point, we’re all talking about the same thing for the same reason in a lot nearer to the same way.

    You’ve got to get it first, though. What folk think and why they got there. Otherwise, we’re talking at each other rather than sharing with the group. Does that make sense? Or, more to the point, do you get the validity of that perspective?

  140. Someguy,

    “do you just flatly disagree with that explanation? or, more to the point, can you understand why a black bermudian could arrive at and be comfortable with that conclusion?”

    Yes I do flatly disagree with that. You talk about the Potential of a UBP Govt.?!! So people think that things would go back to the way they were, under the UBP? I find that very hard to believe. I do however understand how SOME black Bermudians can come to that conclusion with particular PLP representatives bombarding thier people with accusations that the UBP will do just that and more.

    No matter how much spin and doublespeak you put on it, what the Premier said was pointed and direct, and with that same intention of continuing the myth that the UBP will push blacks back to the “Plantation” days. We know this because that is the ongoing strategy of the PLP, to “deceive” or do whatever is deemed necissary to stay in power.

  141. slowhand –

    Why do you find it hard to believe that people, particularly black folk, feel that things would return to the way they were under the UBP? I’m guessing that you probably don’t see anything wrong with life under the UBP, hence the reason you find it so difficult to believe why other folk would view things differently.

    Again. You act like black Bermudians are sheep, incapable of critical thought. As I have stated many times before, if individuals were not able to identify with those feelings, it would fall on deaf ears. It is effective because people can and do identify with it. And nobody is suggesting an actual ‘plantation’ but rather a social and economic freezing out, which was the case under the UBP. Fact.

    Oh. And for the record every political party uses ‘scare tactics’ to turn the electorate off the other party. The Democrats strategy in the last election was to demonize McCain by linking him with George Bush. And we all know how that turned out. If you don’t like the racial language, then fine. But again. Are they really saying anything that is untrue? The UBP had their favourites, their cronies and made a mint when they were in power. Just like certain PLP members are doing now. Ewart Brown didn’t invent the Friends and Family plan. And no, this isn’t the ‘well they did it argument’. It’s the… THINGS REALLY WEREN’T SO DIFFERENT Argument.

    And clearly black folk aren’t the only ones who’d rather get screwed over by somebody who looks and sounds like them.

  142. mambochazbaps,

    I think it’s distasteful to discuss anyone’s personal business on this or any other blog. For all I know, you could be an employee of a bank or some other institution that has privy to people’s personal finances, and I think you are stepping way over the line here. And if you are married to someone who knows about someone else’s personal finances, that too is inappropriate. Remember, none of us live in glass houses.

  143. Someguy,

    i will address your questions this afternoon, as now I am quite busy.

    Below is LtoE which highlights that my arguments about not voting for the PLP due to their “perceived” racial attacks. I am not the only young white voter who feels this way.

    You lot can continue to say that I have been “given an excuse” and that the only reason i don’t vote PLP is because of my inherent racist tendencies. But try telling that to the thousands of young white Bdian voters who feel the same way as I do. I am not the only one in other words.

    Reach out, Dr. Brown

    November 21, 2008

    Dear Sir,

    Below is my Facebook message to Dr. Brown. It was sent after reading about his remarks in the House of Assembly on November 14, speculating on how white Bermudians would have voted in the US election. …

    Dr. Brown,

    Although I didn’t vote for your party in the last two elections and I do not think of you as my No. 1 choice for Premier, I have a lot of respect for how far you risen on the Island, despite what certain members of the white establishment wanted in the civil rights era. You knew what you wanted, you worked hard and eventually you got it. My point is to you, now that you have achieved all this why not be the bigger person and move forward instead of dwelling on what is done and gone.

    What bothers me is that you have a chip on your shoulder against the next generation of white Bermudians who had nothing to do with our dark past. I am educated, open minded and willing to listen to anyone, but when I hear you on the BBC saying white people do not need any help (I am not from one of the original white families who have property all over the island) or I read in The Royal Gazette that white Bermudians would not have voted for Obama, that upsets me! It is just completely playing on stereotypes and completely unprofessional for the leader of the country to dive in to.

    I voted for Obama and strongly believe he was the best choice by far. Not only was he more charismatic, brighter and more refreshing than McCain, but he was the choice for the Democrats, a party that desperately needs to take power to restore credibility to America in the world and to its own citizens. Obama reached out to everyone and while he did not win the majority of white voters, he got pretty close. I think this philosophy of reaching out to the other race is important and something that you could learn a ton from. Yes, the voter make-up is vastly different in Bermuda (the PLP don’t need any white votes to win), whereas Obama needed a significant segment of the white population to vote for him. But the fact was that many white people could care less of the colour of his skin and they voted for someone that represented hope and unification. When he was celebrating his victory in the election at Grant Park in Chicago, I thought the coolest part of the party was seeing all the old black folks who had seen so much injustice (no voting, overt racism, no civil rights, etc) crying for joy. They must have been so excited and optimistic for the future of America.

    Dr Brown, I want to feel that way for Bermuda! I would consider voting PLP next election in Warwick Southeast, if the divisive rhetoric was replaced by a more open arms vibe. Yes, you don’t need me to hold onto power, but wouldn’t you like my support and potentially my time? I feel strongly about giving back to the Island that has given me so much, but part of me is why bother if the Government doesn’t care about me? Probably the most ludicrous comment I have ever heard from any first world political party was when one of your party figures (also happened to be a public school teacher, yikes!) said “voting UBP would essentially be voting yourself back into chains of slavery”. To me that was an insult to every Bermudian’s intelligence (including all the people who cheered at the rally). How can you expect rational, moderate white Bermudians be interested in a party which preaches this?

    And yet, Government continues to spend all this money on the “Big Conversation”, trying to heal Bermuda by bringing in these highflying international experts. All this is undone every election when the PLP comes knocking on every black Bermudian’s door looking for a vote, spooking them about the return of the ‘big bad UBP’. As my dad says “talk is cheap”, so you may say you are trying to heal, but really you enjoy the power that is given to you in the current status quo. So either don’t pretend to be healing Bermuda’s race problem or truly open yourself to that 35 percent of electorate which just may have something to offer. I for one would be very interested.

  144. Lif – thanks for the response and the clarity. The role of government, perceived by the electorate or otherwise, is difficult to pin down in any democratic society at the best of times. The bermudian attitude towards it is particularly fluid, depending on how folks are feeling when you ask ’em.

    That said, the bermudian government/management has been principally concerned with preserving the status quo – which was institutional, state mandated, legislated race based inequity based on presumed inferiority. Lasting all the way up until the 70’s, frankly. All the social structures and cultural instincts we operate with and act from are a product of this status quo that affected everybody while marginalising a particular group to protect another.
    It’s become normal, standard, moral to expect that black folk have less opportunity and resources even in the context that everyone is being represented. Because everyone is being represented, albeit in an inequitable way.

    As an aside, this is why black scholars(emphasis placed equally on both sides of the phrase)and social justice activists were critical of p.e. obama’s campaign, on the basis that the unity it celebrated obscured and, in turn, protected the deep race/sex based inequity hardwired into the american experience. Suggesting we’re all equal is fine, actually believing it is even better. But, if very little about the practicality of the society reflects that equality of access and opportunity, then the panacea of temporary unity is more of a pleasant diversion than it’s worth.

    Thanks for the dialogue.

  145. slowhand – what Casual said. our political attitudes, just like our perspective on race, are largely based on symbols. again, this is a ham and eggs summation, but:

    what the ubp symbolizes to black folks is the body that legally and practically marginalised them for 7/8th’s of the time humans have spent in bermuda. so, to be clear, there’s no rational or legitimate fear that slavery will be reinstated. however, what the group symbolizes and, more importantly, what supporting them represents for black folk is co-signing the oppression which implies that further oppression would be acceptable. or, even, preferable.

    if you can accept that, we could probably come a lot closer to reconciling a lot of this junk.

    what i’d like to know is, really, what does the plp represent to white folks? i suspect it’s more complicated than i’m capable of knowing at this stage. thoughts?

  146. 9ps – i’m grateful to share this dialogue with you.

    i read the letter you reference with some encouragement, based on the pitch more than anything else. far less hysterical than so many similar responses received; i suppose that’s the benefit of having some distance between your own perspective and the endless echo chamber of consensus and concurrence.

    however, what i wonder is why it’s so hard for you to accept or even consider you carry around racial prejudice that affects how you see the world and it’s people? if someone suggested you were sexist and then qualified it, i imagine you wouldn’t be particularly shocked. or, if you had some arbitrary degree of preference for judeo-christian values/people, i assume that’d be acceptable too.

    not acceptable in the sense that you’d be ok with such prejudices remaining intact, of course. acceptable in the sense that you accept that they are legitimate parts of your personality and worldview because of external social forces that define perspective and interaction from birth. in accepting their reality, you’re able to break them apart; if only because you admit their existence and respect the unfair damage they do to you and lead you to do to others.

    why is it so hard to just consider that race occupies a similar space for you?

  147. “why is it so hard to just consider that race occupies a similar space for you?”

    I am not understanding how you expect to have dialogue with statements like that. I am trying to explain myself and my voting preferences and you again tell me that I am racist, but don’t know it.

    You tell me this after less than a day and a couple of posts on a blog? That’s not dialogue mate, it is labelling and stereotyping and i don’t appreciate it in the least. This is why individuals, like myself, are in a lose-lose situation in this island.

    But thank you for confirming my true personality after not knowing myself for the last 26 years.

  148. “however, what i wonder is why it’s so hard for you to accept or even consider you carry around racial prejudice that affects how you see the world and it’s people”

    Please confirm as to how you reached this conclusion about me.

  149. 9ps – i’m not saying race DOES occupy a similar space for you. i’m asking, based on my limited interaction with you, why it seems so hard for you to even consider that idea.

    or, to put it slightly differently, i’m not saying you are carrying around racial prejudice, i’m saying you seem absolutely unwilling to think about the possibility, no matter how plausible said possibility seems.

    do you not see the difference? if so, i apologize for being unclear.

    PS i base my opinion of your unwillingness to even consider the idea of your own racial prejudice based on what you’ve related about your brri experience. one meeting and out of the process for good after hearing black folks share their real pain in a way that doesn’t comfortably satisfy you clearly does not a committed anti-racist make. beyond that, it definitely doesn’t demonstrate you’re a person who really considers even the possibility of themself being part of the collective problem/solution dynamic.

  150. Fair enough.

    The BRRI is what everyone labels it as a “Big Con.” There is no conversation whatsoever among the participants and Mr. Commissiong does nothing to help moderate to help create an environment of healthy debate. It is just finger pointing and personal attacks. That does not constitute a constructive conversation by my standards.

    The difference between you (based onyour above comment) and I is I don’t consider this “initiative” as the be all end all way to healing BDA’s racial divide. My everyday actions are more helpful then attending such sessions. So if you think that my unwillingness to sit in a “debate” while I am ripped apart by people that don’t even know me and are unwilling to see the other individual’s pov, is tantamount to me not wanting a level playing field and me being inherently racist, then so be it. Call me a racist, call me a white supremacist, cracker, slave master or whatever else you think fits.

  151. CO
    I’m guessing that you probably don’t see anything wrong with life under the PLP, hence the reason you find it so difficult to believe why other folk would view things differently… (back atcha) And basically I could throw back everything else you said too with and few adjustments….

  152. 9ps – your assessment of the brri is still personally anecdotal, and extremely limited by definition and choice. definitely valid, as it’s yours, but nothing to base any sort of broad opinion on that’s worth much in a big picture sense. it’d be like me saying port o’ call’s a crappy restaurant with poor wait staff and worse acoustics since the one time i went since the redesign i was sat next to a 20 deep happily raucous christmas party that slowed up service. actually, that analogy is probably more apt than i meant it to be since both, in this instance, would be working the kinks out. figuring out how to acheive the desired goals while satisfying the occupants of the room.

    anyway. so, the one meeting you happen to attend feels loud and accusatory, therefore the whole initiative stretching across the better part of 2 years featuring a full length bermuda-specific world class documentary to boot is worthless. right. i’m sure you can see how that’s just a weird perspective to adopt, let alone protect. beyond that, why do you intrepret a conversation where people who have been oppressed are expressing the resulting pain as something that leaves you “ripped apart”? is it really that bad? honestly, i’m not being facetious.

    also, when it comes to healing the racial divide, what do your everyday actions consist of? if they’re similar to your interaction in this space, then i can’t imagine they’re terrible productive or even particularly empathetic. all i’ve done is ask you why it’s so hard for you to even consider the possibility of you having racial prejudices(through no fault of your own, exactly), and you commence with the histrionics. it doesn’t seem as though you’d listen to, let alone not yell at, anyone who you disagree with on the matter of race.

    i’ve not called you a racist, white supremacist, cracker, slave master, etc. never even used the word racist before you brought it up, actually. you’re pre-emptively reacting to ideas that i’ve never presented. far as i can tell, no-one outside of two people have ever called you anything like that directly – and even to that point, i’m not even sure either of them have said you, individually, were any of those things.

    why so sensitive? again, i’m not being facetious. thanks for the dialogue.

  153. Slowhand – Actually you’re wrong. I have been openly critical of the government when I feel the need arises. And I have stated here and elsewhere that I think that airing our dirty laundry has had the impact of making a number of individuals feel alienated. And yes, you could throw back everything I’ve said. But that doesn’t really get us anywhere, does it?

    More importantly though you’ve chosen to ignore the questions posed to you about whether you can at least understand why black Bermudians frame the UBP in a certain light. Now, if you cannot even empathize with that, then… I’m afraid the chances of us finding common ground, or at the very least, a mutual understanding, then the chances of real progress are slim to none.

  154. slowhand – “I’m guessing that you probably don’t see anything wrong with life under the PLP, hence the reason you find it so difficult to believe why other folk would view things differently…”

    not to speak for CO, but no. it’s not that people believe utopian social equity or justice have been acheived under the PLP. it’s just that, by the very definition of the groups involved, they’re preferable to the UBP.

    “And basically I could throw back everything else you said too with and few adjustments…”

    if those adjustments include the legislated denial of social services and civil rights based on race, then we’d have an argument on these grounds. but, clearly and thankfully, we don’t.

  155. 9ps – I’ve read the accounts of other white folk who have attended the BRRI and found the discussions very enlightening and the whole process very helpful and progressive. I can’t say what happened in your meeting versus the ones that they attended. Open-mindedness and perspective presumably though have a lot to do with how one perceives the overall process and meetings. I can say that based on your posts and dialogue here and elsewhere that I’m not overly surprised that you made the assessment that you did. And that’s not meant as a personal criticism… just that based on our interaction I gather that you are a young, white Bermudian for whome the bulk of your conscious racial awakenings have come at the cost of being branded by the PLP government… painted with a broad brush. I honestly cannot say that my reactions or responses would be any different from yours were I in your shoes.

    As you pointed out earlier, our perceptions are formed based largely around dinner table conversation and our own personal experiences. You and I are fortunate to have both come up in an era in which legal segregation and open discrimination are no longer the order of the day. However, an understanding of where we are and how we got here cannot be obtained without coming to terms with our past. And I think that yourself and a lot of whites get frustrated at this point… throwing hands up, saying ‘but I’m not like that’. And most aren’t… but key to at least beginning to make progress is acknowledging WHY individuals feel the way that they do and not writing off very real concerns as illegitimate.

    Asking why whites vote for the UBP is a legitimate question. It’s a question that both blacks and whites should be comfortable asking ourselves. The reason why blacks for the PLP is more or less accepted as: Blacks vote for the PLP because the UBP is not seen as a viable option, for the sole reason that it has historically been linked with [white] oligarchic rule in Bermuda.

    Now.

    I am asking a question seriously. Forget talk about inclusiveness, racial rhetoric, etc… why is it that in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, 95% of white folks voted for the PLP.

    I’m really curious.

    The answer could be as simple as the PLP having socialist or labour roots. But I really would like some suggestions that pre-date plantation comments in 2007.

  156. Someguy

    Not to step into your argument {discussion?) with 9ps, but I clearly admit the possibility that I have any number of prejudices, be they based on race, sex, religion, height etc. If anyone says they do not carry some form of prejudice around with them, they are fooling themselves. I hope you would agree that prejudice knows no boundries and everyone, be they black, white, yellow, blue, short, tall and everything in between, (including you) will have their own collection of personal prejudices that will be projected in their daily life.

    The key is to be able to recognize those traits or prejudices, have a good hard think about actions that you may take as a result of them, determine whether they are harmful or not, and, as appropriate, try and take corrective measures to limit the harm.

    Not always easy, but if everyone (in particular politicians) went down that road, the world (including Bermuda) would be a better place.

    Pitts Bay

  157. Pitts Bay – exactly. prejudice is real, plausible and practically applied. anyone who denies it(e.g. the colorblindness argument)is being disingenous, intentionally or otherwise.

    however, why is it that every time we discuss the ubiquity of racial prejudice, it’s impossible to keep it specific? particularly, in my experience, when having a conversation with white folks.

    i do appreciate you sharing your truth as it relates to your possible prejudices. but, since we’re talking about race, can you be more specific as to the ones you carry in that particular arena? have you considered that you may be racially prejudiced, and if so, where’d that train of thought end up parking itself?

  158. “also, when it comes to healing the racial divide, what do your everyday actions consist of? if they’re similar to your interaction in this space, then i can’t imagine they’re terrible productive or even particularly empathetic.”

    Please elaborate

  159. “And that’s not meant as a personal criticism… just that based on our interaction I gather that you are a young, white Bermudian for whome the bulk of your conscious racial awakenings have come at the cost of being branded by the PLP government… painted with a broad brush:

    Exactly. So whatever i say to defend to myself I will always be painted with this broad brush. I try and explain my pov and where I a coming from and all I get in return is your racist. It’s tiring and extremely boring.

    “I am asking a question seriously. Forget talk about inclusiveness, racial rhetoric, etc… why is it that in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, 95% of white folks voted for the PLP. ”

    Because the majority of white Bdians are racist and white supremacists that could and still cannot imagine that any black Bdians being in power unless under the PLP. There you go.

  160. Someguy – before I respond to your last question, do you believe that you are, or could be, racially prejudiced?

    Pitts Bay

  161. 9PS – the rest of the paragraph and the one that follows, i’d think, elaborates adequately.

    “all i’ve done is ask you why it’s so hard for you to even consider the possibility of you having racial prejudices(through no fault of your own, exactly), and you commence with the histrionics. it doesn’t seem as though you’d listen to, let alone not yell at, anyone who you disagree with on the matter of race.

    i’ve not called you a racist, white supremacist, cracker, slave master, etc. never even used the word racist before you brought it up, actually. you’re pre-emptively reacting to ideas that i’ve never presented. far as i can tell, no-one outside of two people have ever called you anything like that directly – and even to that point, i’m not even sure either of them have said you, individually, were any of those things.”

    is that clear?

    now, my final question as to why you’re so sensitive has(i think)been answered through your dialogue line with Casual. it seems that the only time you’ve conciously considered race is through the framework/references presented by members of the government. if i’m wrong on this, please forgive me.

    if that’s right, that’s quite important. if you’re 26, i imagine your parents were either alive during segregation or, at the very least, the period immediately following that. for them to have never discussed the real, embedded inequity that has always affected their black neighbours with you is absolutely normal for white folks(based on the anecdotal evidence i’ve been able to gather), but extraordinarily problematic. it’s rather like german civilians not discussing the war with their kids. why did that truth get left out of the necessary topic list? or, even, how?

    that said, your understanding of race would, just by virtue of it’s conceptual newness, be rather clumsy and reactionary and entirely un-empathetic. does that make sense?

  162. 9ps – for someone who wants dialogue, your response to Casual’s question is quite strange.

    why do you refuse to answer it honestly? seriously, what’s the big deal? why not just express the reason you, as a young white bermudian, have come up with as to why white folk have voted as a racial bloc since the option to do so was made available?

    to me, that would seem a much simpler and more responsible way to engage.

  163. “that said, your understanding of race would, just by virtue of it’s conceptual newness, be rather clumsy and reactionary and entirely un-empathetic. does that make sense?”

    Sounds a little harsh!

    Someguy, I would hazard a guess that you are just a bit older than 26. but just a bit. Given that, wouldn’t the same analogy apply to you too?

    In my reading of your comments, you seem to talking at 9ps, rather than trying to get a discussion. Kind of what he was saying the Big Con was like.

  164. Pitts Bay – yep. of course i’m racially prejudiced. just like i carry around gender prejudice, sexuality prejudice, eurocentric prejudice, etc. i didn’t invent them or install them in my head or heart. but, i definitely do have them and on some levels, i AM my prejudice. but being aware of them makes it that much easier for me to protect myself and the folks i interact with from being damaged or mistreated by them.

    i find once you realize there’s something stuck in your ears, you tend to listen that much more closely.

    so. i’ve shown you mine. you?

  165. Not to interrupt the two conversaations (or more?) but I wanted to just say, 9ps, I think you are confusing having racial prejudice – which is the case for most people including myself and, well… everyone I know personally – with being a racist. They are two totally different things. One is more subconscious and coloured by experiences more than just your own and the other is severely personal. In order to have this conversation, you must not make this personal. You know that you aren’t a racist, right? So let’s put that aside and deal strictly with the actual concepts.

  166. 9ps – Dude. show me where myself or anybody else has said that you are racist. All I have been asking for since my initial post is for people’s thoughts on why 95% of whites vote for the UBP. Even with an alternative… without using anything that Ewart Brown has ever said as a defense.

    I pose the question because I don’t think I’ve ever read/seen anybody offer up an explanation and I am genuinely interested. You choose instead to have a hissy fit and throw your toys out of the pram, which is an impediment to open, honest dialogue. Understanding, respect and an open mind is vital to any discussion, particularly on matters of race. Myself and others have been asked to explain our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc ad naseum, but when asked a question that would move us all a lot closer to some sort of understanding and mutual respect, you shut down. No wonder you thought the BRRI sucked.

    And again. Nobody called you a racist. Hell, the white predisposition towards voting for the UBP could have something to do with a factor totally un-related to race, racism, or being racist.

    I am simply asking for your explanation of the facts. As I have offered and elucidated on mine.

  167. Pitts Bay – i am older than 26. but, as a black person, i’ve been exposed to race as a concept and reality from birth.

    i apologize if anything i’ve said appears harsh, that’s not the goal. the goal is to avoid the kind of commitment to polite reassurance that seems to dominate the race dialogue in this particular space. now, i don’t think i’ve been anything other than civil. i’ve explained my pov in great detail and i’ve asked for his perspective on my perspective every step of this conversation. since, clearly, that’s what i want: to understand his ideas and attitude as best i can.

    once we understand what we each know and believe, we can start to trust what we tell each other. then, we can start to work.

  168. Crystal clear. I don’t agree, but I see where you are coming from.

    “i’m not even sure either of them have said you, individually, were any of those things.”

    I will gladly provide quotes if necessary.

    In the end the racial language and incinuations that are used by our political leaders and obviously supported by the PLP (i.e. lack of condemnation) flies right in the face of the PLP’s claim of the want for racial unity and does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for OUR island as a whole.

    Anyways, thanks for your time and your input into why I react and think the way I do. Take care mate and keep up the good dialogue (I mean that).

  169. 9ps – sorry, not explanation, more like interpretation. In the absence of other points of view, all we are left with is our own.

    I am genuinely interested, and have been, since the beginning of this discussion, on white Bermudians perspectives on why 95% of whites have ALWAYS voted for the UBP (with the exception of Stuart Hayward, who I feel was elected more on parochial isses in his Constituency)… oh. And any references to the ‘plantation’ or related comments are off-limits as that type of speak is a relatively recent development that cannot be used to explain the last 40 years of voting patterns.

  170. Actually CO, good idea. Remove that last election and its racial undertones out of the discussion altogether. Those voting patterns are the ones that might explain why such a disparity.

  171. 9ps – thanks. what exactly don’t you agree with about my perspective; on you, or otherwise?

    and, for now, let’s forget the political dialogue/tone. i mean, it is just us talking, right? couple young bermudians trying to understand each other.

    i’ve answered every question you’ve asked in detail, with courtesy and respect. so, i’m justified to request reciprocation. what don’t you agree with? where am i wrong?

    or even, how about just this one in particular:

    why do you think white folk have voted monolithic racial bloc since having the opportunity to do so?

    honestly, please don’t cop out at this point. we’re actually making some decent progress, seems like.

  172. I agree with CO.

    There are many whites and portuguese who say they are turned off of voting for the PLP because of the racial rhetoric spoken by Dr Brown and certain PLP people. Ok that may explain why they didnt vote for Marc bean last week, or didnt support the PLP last year.

    But I would be curious as to know why the larger white community didnt support the PLP in 2003, or 1998 or 1993, or 1989 or 1985 or 1983, or 1980 etc…

    My instincts tell me that these people would NEVER support the PLP and all the racial talk that they profess to hate so much just gives them the reason they need.

  173. Ken

    I imagine in your haste to see the racial bogeyman under every stone you might have missed the coincident fator of class and alignment policy interests….

  174. Ken – See posts number 100 and 104.

    In the interest of promoting dialogue though I am willing to set aside my own interpretation of the results in the hopes that somebody will offer up another tangible explanation. Honestly, I do not believe that I’ve ever heard anybody attempt to provide one. And I really, really genuinely would appreciate some food for thought in the form of an alternate explanation to marinate on and turn over in my mind.

    Unfortunately I do not have the historical knowledge to frame things against the social, political and economic backgrounds of the 60’s, 70′, 80’s and 90’s but I find it striking that white support of the UBP remains relatively consistent and therefore, seek an explanation as to how or rather why things have remained relatively static for white Bermuda.

  175. mambo – ok. then why do you think white folk would monolithically occupy a disproportionately non-labour-centric economic class in an immediately post-segregation bermuda?

    actually, i don’t even believe that to be true. there have always been poor white folk in this country. obviously.

    but, as the empiricists will tell you: regardless of their economic status, white folk in bermuda have always intentionally stuck together politically, socially and(possibly most importantly)aspirationally.

    is there a reason that doesn’t parse it’s way back to race?

  176. “My instincts tell me that these people would NEVER support the PLP and all the racial talk that they profess to hate so much just gives them the reason they need.”

    Well, CO and Someguy, I suspect that the kind of sentiment expressed here illustrates precisely why whites don’t typically vote for the PLP: anything that whites assert in matters of race and politics is all a big excuse to cover up what appalling racists they are.

  177. Loki –

    In the absence of alternate explanations, again… all we are left with are our own points of view. Which is why it’s important to have these conversations and be offered different perspectives or points of view… in order for us to re-evaluate our own.

    Now. I have always respected your POVs and perspective. Do you have any suggestions?

  178. I meant to add that, if you want to read the very kind of crude, insulting generalization of what it means to be a white Bermudian of which people are sick and tired, take a read of the opinion piece written by Lynne Winfield (who is, I believe, white) in today’s Sun. The idea that that is representative of the average white family is laughable, at best, but it’s this kind of generalization that is constantly thrown around in Bermuda’s racial discussions.

  179. loki – i can understand that reaction. immediately, at least.

    however, what i don’t understand, is the inability to provide any conclusive theory to explain the racially monolithic voting patterns that white folk have chosen to follow and maintain for nearly half a century.

    ideas?

  180. If you start from a position of wealth and status and have natural human aspirations, you want to keep what you have and opportunistically acquire more. If you don’t start from that position you still have those aspirations. Capiche?

    That is why Ewart loathes spending a second more than his photo op requires in a working mens club or a cricket club bar. He would move his office to Mid Ocean if he could because he wants what is better. I’m not sure what distinct policy the UBP had that has ever acted as a lightning rod for racists, however I can think of many that have been economically aspirational.

  181. “Now. I have always respected your POVs and perspective. Do you have any suggestions?”

    Firstly, the kind of sentiment expressed by Ken is one that many white Bermudians find disgusting and tiresome, and it’s just another way of raising the spectre of the evil, white boogeyman. Whites are constantly accused of being wilfully dishonest in discussing race, so such sentiments are, to say the least, unhelpful.

    To answer the question, as best as I can, with regard to why white Bermudians don’t vote for the PLP, I think that the answer is quite simple: the PLP is perceived as an organization that I was created to promote the interests of black Bermudians. By way of reaction, the UBP was created. The PLP has always been perceived by white Bermudians, rightly or wrongly, as a party that is solely concerned with the interests of black Bermudians, and since 2003 I would argue that the party has moved further and further along these lines, and has become actively hostile to whites. I would not argue that such active hostility existed prior to this, but I would reiterate that it has always been perceived as a party solely concerned with the interests of black Bermudians.

  182. Sorry for interrupting but in the spirit of introducing another (albeit still developing) point of view …

    More importantly though you’ve chosen to ignore the questions posed to you about whether you can at least understand why black Bermudians frame the UBP in a certain light.

    I understand why the UBP can be seen in a certain light given the history of the island, however, the UBP would not have existed in government for so many years had it not had some form of black support so this statement should be recast as: some black Bermudians frame the UBP.

    The problem I have though is the way the PLP consciously (and to my mind) unfairly juxtaposes the atrocities of slavery and the legacy of racism with the 21st century political dynamic, purely for political gain.

    This is especially the case around election time as can be evidenced by the fervour which overcomes PLP supporters during numerous pre election rallies whenever speakers make disparaging remarks about UBP candidates (milkman, confused negro, etc.). It reminds me of the horrible feeling you get in your gut when you see other rallies (not the good kind) depicted in films or on television about the pre-segregationist U.S.

    Whether it’s a fair statement or not, I believe the PLP use race as a rallying call to drum up support whenever needed (but maybe that’s my own biases talking) which in turn is viewed (rightly or wrongly) by the white community as a divisive tactic.

    I know the UBP are also to blame for whipping up the somewhat erroneous hysteria (I say somewhat simply based on prevailing economic facts and the PLP’s failure to recognise that our recent run of fiscal success has far more to do with external factors and the legislative foundation the Bermuda business paradigm is built upon versus anything they have proactively implemented … nonetheless I’m quite sure they will eventually see the light and when the economy really starts to slide have no problem blaming “external force beyond our control” … don’t worry I see the hypocrisy/irony of that remark but there’s more fact than hyperbole in that rant) of portraying the PLP as incapable minders of the public purse but that’s not nearly as fundamental an issue as race.

    That said, the bermudian government/management has been principally concerned with preserving the status quo – which was institutional, state mandated, legislated race based inequity based on presumed inferiority. Lasting all the way up until the 70’s, frankly. All the social structures and cultural instincts we operate with and act from are a product of this status quo that affected everybody while marginalising a particular group to protect another.

    Agreed, to a certain extent, however, the question then becomes … so how has this changed or improved under the PLP’s turn at the wheel over the last ten years? They were voted in as an agent for change but as far as I can tell it’s been, pretty much, more of the same (or worse in some instances).

    As far I’m concerned the way forward is education but (for decades) politics and bureaucracy have invaded our school system to the detriment of our future generations. It’s certainly not a matter of a lack of funding (the Government coffers have doubled in ten years) so how does this get fixed? Six education ministers in ten years, more and more committees and politically motivated appointees/consultants are not decent starting points.

  183. Lokes – Thanks for your response. My question though was not so much why not the PLP, as it was why the UBP. My initial train of thought was based on the lack of votes that Independent candidates have received. Also, while I’m admittedly not well-versed on the history of the NLP, obviously they too were unsuccessful in drawing away from the white appeal of the UBP in spite of their appearing more middle of the road.

    And to take your thoughts a step further, what, in your opinion would be required of a new party hoping to carry the ‘white vote’ and is it possible to carry the white vote whilst also focusing on addressing the disparity between black and white Bermudians? ie, can a political party still talk about race without alienating white bermudian voters?

    Lastly, I just read the piece by Lynne Winfield and am curious as to what you found inaccurate about it.

  184. mambo – right, that makes sense.

    what about the poor whites, though? who were and have been labour, practically and perceptively? why would they roll with the group that existed to counter the argument that their interests were worth protecting?

    it’s like the women who rolled republican this past us g.e. after hillary lost the democractic primary in retaliation to what they perceived as sexism. how they rationalised politically aligning themselves with the group traditionally looking after the interests of old white men rather than other marginalised social sectors is probably comparable to the local dynamic we’re discussing.

  185. I think you are mistaking a crude and simplistic characterization of a political movement and the subtlety of its political message.

  186. The question isn’t why don’t whites vote for the PLP. The question is does the PLP want white votes?

    If they do, genuinely, why do they actively chase them away and feign exasperation at the lack of (racist) white support?

    No one is going to vote for something/someone who tells them they don’t need them, aren’t interested in what they think, but expect a vote because of white guilt.

    They call themselves the black party and then lament the lack of white support. It’s called causation.

  187. loki – ok, i can appreciate that perspective. thanks for sharing it.

    that said, why do you think white folks would feel the need to push back, respond to or temper the political movement of black folks towards achieving equity?

    in a post-segregation bermuda, that’s what we’d be talking about. the STATS survey discussing the state of seniors in the country highlights the point and the people from that period in particular. 51% of black seniors have yearly incomes below 25 thousand dollars a year, compared to just 29 percent of whites. At the other end of the spectrum, 35 percent of white seniors earned more than 50K per year compared to just 20 percent of blacks.

    that’s not surprising at all, but staggering nonetheless. i only bring up those facts to reinforce the need to question why white folks in the 60’s would have felt the need to fight against black(read:poor)people trying to become less so, and not necessarily at their expense?

  188. Can anybody tell me where to find voting results broken down by race? I can’t quite seem to find them online and would like to know where the #’s come from.

    People hark on about 90% of whites voting for the UBP, but always fail to mention that 80% of blacks vote for the PLP (assuming that the 20% of blacks who vote for the UBP that I’ve heard mentioned before is actually correct).

    How does one even get race-based election results?

  189. Let me jump in here (at my peril, perhaps) to answer CO’s question from my point of view, only. I am white, my wife is black. I have a very close relationship with her whole family, most of whom have done quite well for themselves financially, and I am treated as a member of the family. My own family was not close, and my older brother and I do not communicate, so this black family, who accepted me the way I was, was a huge blessing to me. My Father-in-Law put all his children through college or university by working two jobs, as my Mother-in-Law was a traditional stay-at-home mom & homemaker. There are a couple other biracial marriages in the family. I have never experienced any racism in this huge wonderful family. The immediate family are all UBP supporters and have voted that way since I first got to know them in the late 60s. They are a well-to-do, not wealthy, conservative, middle class black family, who worked hard for their money, and obviously felt that the UBP could best represent them — as that Party was considered to be the Conservative middle class party at the time, and there were many prominent blacks in the Party. As well, my wife’s parents and siblings seemed quite happy with the status quo.

    The only other option was the Labour Party which they could not identify with at the time. They were not labourers or union people. In fact, they would probably be considered the elite of the day. In any case it was a middle class thing. So that’s how I got introduced to the UBP. And ultimately a wealthy family member did join the UBP and maintained a prominent position within that Party for quite a few years. All that is to say this….

    I have always had the impression, through the years, that the the plp were a rather outspoken, left-wing, pro-union party who were not really interested in attracting whites to join them, as they felt back then that Bermudian whites were the oppressors. Just like today, but not so blatant. Many whites back then felt that there was also a connection and association between the radical Black Berets (and all that happened at that time) and the plp. And then ‘the riots’ went down scaring the sh*t out of most whites! And blacks!

    As well, during those times whites were often ostracised if they joined the plp. Witness what happened to Dr. Barbara Ball who was considered by many whites to be quite the radical at that time, too. Then we all watched what happened to Alex Outerbridge who joined the plp only to be railroaded out by blacks some time later.

    The plp has never been an option for white Bermudians, and many middle class blacks, in my view, because of the Party’s IMAGE… that is was an extremely pro-union, almost radical, black party for black working people only, which tried to change the status quo. And Mrs. Brown Evans, the leader, was not too friendly towards whites at the time, either, as I recall. It is only recently that the monied black elite have taken over the reigns of the Party and now we are where we are….

  190. Wow.

    Two days without a computer and you lot get all deep on me!

    While I agree that figuring out the reasons behind traditional voting patterns (for the record, the times I voted UBP before 1998 was because I knew my candidate personally and thought he was the best choice. In 1998, I voted PLP. Since then, I have wanted to vote PLP, but haven’t, because I don’t like some of the things going on. The last election, I voted UBP for two reasons. The first was completely selfish: they’re a goofy looking bunch and, as a cartoonist, I would have enjoyed drawing them. The second was a little deeper. I felt, and still feel that it would have been a jolt to the system and an interesting exercise to watch them be scrutinized and criticized as harshly as the PLP governments have been in this age of communication. It would also, I feel, have eased some of the pressure to tell exorbitant, baseless lies in defense of your party of choice (both sides… That wasn’t a pot shot.) and would have most of us, the loudmouth bloggers who DON’T have a party affiliation and DO only criticize when they see something they don’t like, working side by side with PLP bloggers to spank the then-in-power UBP.) it’s still important to address the reasons people aren’t voting for them NOW.

    Yes, the PLP are under no obligation to court my vote, but I, personally, would prefer to feel a little less like I’m considered a second class citizen in my own country.

    Unfortunately, certain actions and speeches and choices made by certain members of the PLP have led me to believe that the current administration doesn’t care one lick about me as a citizen. This saddens me to no end, as does the complete lack of answers to questions I ask in hopes of understanding.
    I was one of the outraged at Ms Foggo’s “shackles” comments, but, through talking with people I know and trust, I’ve come to understand what she was going for and, instead of being up in arms about it, I just think it was poorly considered and unfortunate that the possibility that it may be misconstrued wasn’t taken into account, a la Dale (side note: Ms Furbert did teach me that respect should be shown to our politicians and, as such, I use Mr. And Mrs. Or their title when referring to them if I don’t know them. I use Dale here because I do know him.) comments about expat ladies.

    These are the reasons I question the things folks say, as there are always two sides.

    This Obama/”other man” comment still baffles me, though.

  191. CO – The problem with third parties and/or independent candidates is that, once you have two dominant political parties, there is a perception on the part of individual voters that a vote for a third party or independent candidate is a wasted vote because they have no chance of getting in. I mean, how long have the Lib Dems and their previous incarnations been running for Parliament in the UK without ever getting within a whiff of the Government? Why would white Bermudians, who would have perceived the NLP, Kalid Wasi and Harold Darrell as having no chance of winning, vote for them, knowing that their vote would simply make it more likely that the PLP candidate would win? All Kalid Wasi would have done, if he had received a substantial proportion of the white vote, would be to split the white vote and hand the seat to Marc Bean.

    I do think that, if the UBP were to dissolve and new party was created, it would be possible to address the issue of race and appeal to both black and white voters. I do think society has moved on in the last twenty years, and that whites – especially younger whites – are more open to discussing race and racial disparities in general. It’s not discussing race that’s off-limits, it’s USING race as a means to a political end that is. The PLP squandered a fantastic opportunity that it had post 98′ to discuss race in a way that could truly unite people and end the historical suspicion held by whites in discussing race. If the PLP were to actively demonstrate that it really is an inclusive party with the interests of all Bermudians at its heart, I believe that you would see more and more whites voting for it. Hell, I could see myself voting PLP, if I were to return to Bermuda, but I will never do so whilst the PLP uses tactics seemingly designed to push whites further and further away, and to demonize them in the eyes of black Bermudians. Whites will never vote for the PLP whilst Ewart Brown remains at the helm, though. That won’t happen in a million years.

    “Lastly, I just read the piece by Lynne Winfield and am curious as to what you found inaccurate about it.”

    Simply that what she presented as the reality of a typical white household was in any way ‘typical’: the high-flying jobs that weren’t deserved, the ease of obtaining a mortgage, the children who were able to amass wealth because of the generosity of mommy and daddy.

  192. “that said, why do you think white folks would feel the need to push back, respond to or temper the political movement of black folks towards achieving equity”

    Because when people group to together to advance their interests, the people who are not part of that group will naturally feel as though they need to do the same to prevent them from being dominated and having their interests ignored and/or actively undermined.

  193. “that said, why do you think white folks would feel the need to push back, respond to or temper the political movement of black folks towards achieving equity?”

    Who said they did? Perhaps one party said we’ll build a coalition and the other side said we’re the black party and will do it the black way.

    This is always presented as a binary choice. It wasn’t.

    The choice was evolution or revolution not equality or not.

  194. Wow. Hit refresh and Bam! But seriously, thanks to everybody for the discussion.

    starman – thanks for sharing your experience. it actually reflects/supports my theory that underneath all the racial gobbly gook is the fact that this is not a race ‘war’ (ie, black versus white) so much as it was and is a class ‘war’ (ie upper vs. lower with middle falling either side of the fence). Unfortunately as class and race are inextricably linked, oftentimes what we see on the surface[read: skin colour] is not necessarily the reality.

    lokes – points taken on the Independent voters. And I do agree with you that younger whites in general are more open to discussing race and disparities. I do agree that post-98 the issue of race could have been approached in a healthier, more constructive manner to invite everybody to the table rather than having the effect of white Bermudians feel marginalized.

    This is a key point for me because I do think that it is important to discuss race and discuss the disparities in an effort to raising awareness and moving us collectively towards action. I just want to guage whether discussing race on any level is off-limits.

    With respect to Lynne Winfields piece, recognizing that all experiences are different, what then is your picture of a typical white household. I think Ms Winfields piece spoke more to the concept of ‘white privilege’ to explain the disparities… ie, moving to the head of the class simply because of skin colour. In a segregationist or even immediately post-segregationist era, what makes you think that this is an inaccurate depiction as far as jobs and mortgages go? The lenders and employers were white folks.

  195. “In a segregationist or even immediately post-segregationist era, what makes you think that this is an inaccurate depiction as far as jobs and mortgages go?”

    My issue is simply whether the typical white, Bermudian family had access high-flying jobs and easy credit facilities through which they could amass wealth for themselves and their children. I believe that Lynne Winfield is creating an overly-rosy picture that plays into the prejudices of many black Bermudians that all white Bermudians are born with a silver spoon in their mouths. Quite frankly, my impression of the lives of many white Bermudians of the era is not dissimilar to the picture that Lynne Winfield has painted of black Bermudians, at least in terms of wealth and property ownership.

  196. Loki – Lynne Winfields account does not depict individuals born with a silver spoon. It depicts two groups at the same starting point, one of whome is given certain opportunities that others do not have access to because of skin colour. Of course they had greater access than blacks at the time had, if that was not the case blacks would not have had to campaign for equality under the law – unless you aligned yourself politically with individuals who were going to open doors for you… which is why a number of blacks supported the UBP… For crissakes black people couldn’t even vote, let alone have access to jobs.

    They had access simply through their whiteness. Of course there were poor whites. But a poor white person would have still been put in a different bucket than a black person. Simply on the basis of skin colour. And I’m not making that up.

  197. more simply put… for a whole heap of individuals in that era, white = superior, black = inferior. White, even poor white was a better alternative to black. All other things being equal I’m pretty sure you couldn’t pick out a poor white person in a crowd…

  198. CO – I’m not denying the concept of white privilege, or that whites had certain advantages not afforded blacks, but I do dispute how widespread those advantages were in terms the ability of the average white family to utilize them in real terms. The opinion piece paints the typical white Bermudian family as one of affluence, with easy access to property ownership and lines of credit, with the ability to pass on amassed wealth to their children. You think that this scenario was typical, I do not.

  199. To put it another way, just because I have a particular advantage in reaching a certain goal, doesn’t actually mean that I will ever actually be able to attain that goal: I’m white, so I’d have an advantage in breaking into an overwhelmingly white, Eurocentric sport such as Formula 1, but I’m too old at 34 and don’t have the level of driving talent required, so my advantage comes to nothing.

  200. Curtis has committed fraud in bermuda with the crap christian religion tourist scam, that he recieved money frm the taxpayers for with no business plan, thats y he didnt have any success, n this is why hes yet to tell the tax payers how the money was spent n where the moneey is.
    Funny how all these plp insiders get all this free tax payer money, with no business plans, while people looking to get small business capital dont get any and they have business plans.
    So since hes scammed the bermuda tax payers via tourist scam, and pocked the money…its no suprise that hes used out monies to commit an apparen scam in the USA. His bank accounts are justifiably open for public scrutiny cause hes stolen taxpayer monies. I hope he gets wht he deserves N I suggest what when people see this scammer in public, they ask him wheres our money? Talkin to peers who have know this curtic guy from school days…prople his age that hes grown up with….say hes always had a scammer type vibe bout him, based on the various thefts hes performed in the past.
    I dont know why bermudians let these types of people scam them…its really sad.

  201. there is a race and classwar goin on here. and the so called middle n lower middle n lower classes get shitted on the most by rich whites n blacks. And thoese who have degrees n think they r some how better than people who dont have the same letters behind their name.
    They get blocked from various employment opportunities, including government jobs, (even thought they have qualifications n experience in various fields) they get discriminated against, and in many cases this behaviour comes from the government n civil servants, who have gorgotten they r meerly employees and over glorified paper pushers!
    FUCK ALL OF U THAT PULL THIS BULLSHIT ON YA OWN PEOPLE!

  202. Loki – statistically, black folk are siginificantly underpaid(the difference between, say, being able to cover a reasonable mortgage as opposed to paying a relatively high rent), incarcerated(the difference between able to get access to domestic work/overseas opportunity instantaneously or not), etc. The stats I quoted relating to our senior population and the race based income disparity also reflect the ubiquity of color-coded inequity.

    Lynne’s piece might not set well with you emotionally, but the data is inarguable.

    Also, your f1 car advantage example is flawed in one key way; in the only way that matters, really. White privilege means an inherent advantage to having a healthier, more productive and happy life. Not towards pursuing an extra curricular activity. So, it’s not so much that white folk capitalize or not on the advantage. Despite the data demonstrating that said capitalisation definitely occurs(consciously or not, I’ve no idea), that’s entirely beside the point.

    The fact that such an awful, unfair, immoral, imbalanced reality exists is the problem. The choice to benefit is immaterial, the practicality of systemic marginalisation is the core issue – everything else is just a symptom of that hub sickness or, at least, after the fact.

  203. Again, Someguy, I am not disputing the existence of inherent white privilege, or that it is immoral. I do dispute the extent to which the average white Bermudian has been able to capitalize upon that privilege – consciously or otherwise – and actually attain anything different from the average black Bermudian in real terms. Acknowledging the existence of white privilege is both important and useful, but it is also important that this acknowledgement not be twisted into a notion that the average white Bermudian is born with a silver spoon his or her mouth, and that their achievements and assets not be assumed to be ill-gotten gains.

  204. “Also, your f1 car advantage example is flawed in one key way; in the only way that matters, really. White privilege means an inherent advantage to having a healthier, more productive and happy life. Not towards pursuing an extra curricular activity.”

    I wholly disagree. It’s a prime example of having a theoretical advantage in attaining a goal, without ever having a realistic prospect of capitalizing on that advantage (oh, and just to be pedantic, Formula 1 isn’t an extracurricular activity, it’s a professional career – the same point could apply to someone wishing to become an accountant, for instance).

  205. loki – understood. it’s necessary to talk about this in real terms, it’s been abstracted for too long for all the wrong reasons.

    i don’t think i’ve been presenting the idea that white folks come with a pre-inserted silver spoon – which is an odd cliche to frame it with, frankly. it instantly implicitly changes the meaning of white privilege. neither am i questioning the method used by white bermudians to create their acheivements

    what extent are you disputing exactly? the STATS survey, the CURE data, the Census material?

    and, what would you reccomend in terms of social policy to get the necessary balance? beyond the obvious suggestion of improving the educational system since black bermudians are still consistently underpaid regardless of their academic qualifications.

  206. Loki – Obviously the average black Bermudian has not been able to capitalize on things that the average white Bermudian has. Hence the disparities in virtually any area you hold up for examination. At the heart of all of it is white privilege. Unless you simply believe that blacks are inherently inferior. That is the only other alternative to explain why apples with apples things don’t stack up. Either somebody has an advantage, or somebody has an inherent deficiency.

  207. “I wholly disagree. It’s a prime example of having a theoretical advantage in attaining a goal, without ever having a realistic prospect of capitalizing on that advantage (oh, and just to be pedantic, Formula 1 isn’t an extracurricular activity, it’s a professional career – the same point could apply to someone wishing to become an accountant, for instance).”

    forgive me, i framed my point poorly.

    it’s not just that white folks are privileged, exactly. more that they’re handled fairly by different social institutions and black folk are not. it’s impossible for a white person to not capitalize on the disproportionate advantage of being white when it comes to being, say, met by a police officer or a loan manager or an hr representative. and, conversely, there’s no way for a black person to really avoid being disproportionately damaged as a result of being black in those sorts of situations.

    there’s no choice involved in maintaining it. that’s what makes it tick along so very steadily – we’re all born into it, instincts included, and it takes active decision making to break it apart.

  208. “Loki – Obviously the average black Bermudian has not been able to capitalize on things that the average white Bermudian has. Hence the disparities in virtually any area you hold up for examination. At the heart of all of it is white privilege. Unless you simply believe that blacks are inherently inferior. That is the only other alternative to explain why apples with apples things don’t stack up. Either somebody has an advantage, or somebody has an inherent deficiency.”

    To repeat: I am not denying the existence of white privilege. I am not suggesting that there are advantages that whites have that are not afforded to blacks. I am simply stating that the extent of that is frequently exaggerated and, indeed, turned into a crude generalization that the achievements of whites are as a result of those advantages. If a white person wanted to qualify to be a lawyer, for instance, he may have a theoretical advantage because of his race, but if he has no hope of funding his way through university, the advantage of his race comes to nothing.

  209. lokes – what happens when that ‘theoretical advantage’ happens to be skin colour framed within the context of a system that has legally entrenched within itself the notion that one skin colour is inferior to another? the ability to even meet the most basic of needs (housing, education, healthcare) an impossibility, or at least the attainment of such for most is limited from the very start. hell, babies born before 1967(?) occupied different areas of the hospital for crying out loud. society handled blacks and whites inequitably from birth.

  210. “To repeat: I am not denying the existence of white privilege. I am not suggesting that there are advantages that whites have that are not afforded to blacks. I am simply stating that the extent of that is frequently exaggerated and, indeed, turned into a crude generalization that the achievements of whites are as a result of those advantages. If a white person wanted to qualify to be a lawyer, for instance, he may have a theoretical advantage because of his race, but if he has no hope of funding his way through university, the advantage of his race comes to nothing.”

    a white person’s that much more likely to get funding for or have access to law school than a black person, because of their race.

    it’s under everything. that’s why it’s so hard to see, let alone correct.

  211. “I am simply stating that the extent of that is frequently exaggerated and, indeed, turned into a crude generalization that the achievements of whites are as a result of those advantages. If a white person wanted to qualify to be a lawyer, for instance, he may have a theoretical advantage because of his race, but if he has no hope of funding his way through university, the advantage of his race comes to nothing.”

    Would you then argue that the reverse is true? That the extent to which the disadvantages blacks have faced is also therefore frequently exaggerated (in the absence, or at least minimilasation of white privilege)? Also, is there not a distinct difference between something that one ultimately has control over (ie, funds) and soemthing that one has no control over (ie, skin colour)?

  212. “a white person’s that much more likely to get funding for or have access to law school than a black person, because of their race.”

    Agreed, but what I’m talking about is the assumption that any achievement of a white person is a result of race alone. Just because a white person is more likely to be able to obtain funding because of his race, doesn’t necessarily mean that an individual person did actually obtain funding because of his race. On numerous occasions, I have heard such generalizations and they are completely unhelpful and frequently baseless.

  213. “Pitts Bay – yep. of course i’m racially prejudiced. just like i carry around gender prejudice, sexuality prejudice, eurocentric prejudice, etc. i didn’t invent them or install them in my head or heart. but, i definitely do have them and on some levels, i AM my prejudice. but being aware of them makes it that much easier for me to protect myself and the folks i interact with from being damaged or mistreated by them.”

    Someguy – offline for a while – thanks for the honest response. I agree with what you said and the same applies to me, i.e. of course I have prejudices based on race, otherwise known as racially prejudiced. As you point out, being aware of it allows you “check yourself” from time to time when they start to influence your thought process.

    On to what CO was asking, about why white people have always voted for the UBP, I really can’t speak for anyone but myself and my immediate family, but I think alot of what Loki and others have said above holds true. On my own part, I would say that I (and my family) have historically voted for the UBP because I come from an affluent family that was involved in the establishment of the UBP – what can I say, it is hard to change tack!

    That being said, the UBP does have a lot of historical baggage (as it has been pointed out does the PLP). I do not really think they are currently viable as an alternative, and it would be my wish that a new party could form that could take the best of both the UBP and the PLP, and leave the dinasours of both parties where they are. The independents are not really an alternative as they can not really bring about change. The PLP is really not an alternative in its current incarnation, firstly because the party leaders consider me irrelevant as a white person; and secondly, as someone who is not labour orientated or socialist or left leaning, why would I vote for them; and thirdly, they keep on screwing up, particularly in the field of IB, where I work.

    Pitts Bay

  214. This is getting remarkably close to a conversation! Well done, you guys! I wish I wasn’t on the blackberry and could join in.

    Please don’t stop. This is remarkable!

  215. “Agreed, but what I’m talking about is the assumption that any achievement of a white person is a result of race alone. Just because a white person is more likely to be able to obtain funding because of his race, doesn’t necessarily mean that an individual person did actually obtain funding because of his race. On numerous occasions, I have heard such generalizations and they are completely unhelpful and frequently baseless.”

    hm. it seems as though the overstatement of inequity angers you more than the inequity itself. do i have this wrong? if not, why would that be? also, you hear far more often and regularly baseless generalizations about the mental acuity, moral stability and sexual common sense of black folk.

    suggesting that white folks are all born rich and happy is obviously false, but it doesn’t really hurt anything than feelings. which is unacceptable, but far less significant than the ramifications of claiming that black folk are meant to be poor and unhealthy; i.e. proactively enshrining the socially professed inferiority of black folk into the public discourse.

    that said, this is a very healthy and natural way to roll into identifying the real enemy in all this. not individual white folks. the problem is the system that protects them over black people.
    the structures, instincts and ideas that allow white folks to decide between walking through the door versus climbing in a window, while the only option black folk have is the latter while being faced with the comparison every day.

  216. “it seems as though the overstatement of inequity angers you more than the inequity itself.”

    Not at all, but just as the racial rhetoric employed by the PLP of late, which whites perceive as an attempt to demonize them, is utterly counter productive in bridging the racial divide, so is the blanket writing-off of white achievement as a result of white privilege. You will get nowhere by making gross generalizations that whites find offensive and fundamentally racist. Insulting and demonizing people will never help in finding common ground.

  217. “Just because a white person is more likely to be able to obtain funding because of his race, doesn’t necessarily mean that an individual person did actually obtain funding because of his race”

    No but the fact that he is admittedly more likely to receive funding because of his race is the problem. And that is essentially at the heart of Ms Winfield’s observations.

  218. “No but the fact that he is admittedly more likely to receive funding because of his race is the problem. And that is essentially at the heart of Ms Winfield’s observations.”

    With respect, I would suggest that she made the leap from arguing that opportunities are more available to whites to arguing an unrealistic, gross generalization of whites that feeds the ‘born with a sliver spoon..’ stereotypes.

  219. loki – I don’t think that anybody is arguing that every white achievement is explainable by white privilege… and personally, I didn’t get that out of Ms Winfield’s piece. Nobody is taking away from the hard work, sweat, blood and tears of regular white folk. But that does not negate the fact that regular folk in what would be regular circumstances (ie, the granting of a bank loan) were treated differently. Through not fault of their own.

    My parents, an interracial couple were denied a mortgage back in the late 70’s… Amicable towards my father but the tone changed as soon as my mother [black] entered the room and the relationship revealed. Denied on the spot with no explanation until another [white] family member intervened which was followed by a phonecall later on that afternoon to confirm that there had been a ‘misunderstanding’. The only way my parents were successful was through the intervention of a white family member… Now how many black couples do you think there were in 1979 who were denied… and had nobody to call in a favour.

    And no, there weren’t any other obvious reasons why they would have reasonably been denied, both being young, educated, professional individuals.

  220. loki – I don’t get the ‘silver spoon’ part in Ms Winfield’s piece. She went to great lengths I think to stress that those parents arriving in the 1960s/70s were regular folk. No silver spoons. And if you are talking about eventual home-ownership which benefited offspring…. well… isn’t that how it works? black or white? I think every white person I know in my age group either lives in their parents property at a below market value price, or were able to use their property to get their own, or, were given property. Same for those black friends that I have who are fortunate enough to own property. But admittedly, black bermudians are less likely to own property than their white counterparts.

  221. “loki – I don’t think that anybody is arguing that every white achievement is explainable by white privilege… and personally, I didn’t get that out of Ms Winfield’s piece. Nobody is taking away from the hard work, sweat, blood and tears of regular white folk. But that does not negate the fact that regular folk in what would be regular circumstances (ie, the granting of a bank loan) were treated differently. Through not fault of their own.”

    No, you’re not making that argument, and neither is Someguy or, indeed, Ms. Winfield, but it the gross generalization in that regard is something that I’ve heard fairly regular. I do think that the clumsy way in which Ms. Winfield illustrated her point was a generalization and is the the kind of illustration that fuels the problem that I’m addressing.

    Let’s be clear here, though: this isn’t me bitching or trying to declare, “woe is me”; I’m simply suggesting strategies by which racial issues can be properly addressed without whites throwing up their hands and walking away because they feel demonized and insulted. That may be frustrating, but it’s the truth, and it’s precisely the reason why Ewart is so counter productive.

  222. “But admittedly, black bermudians are less likely to own property than their white counterparts.”

    I think you’ll find that that’s untrue, actually, as blacks have historically invested in land precisely because they were denied opportunities in the business and investment arena. I actually recall Walton Brown making that very point in discussing why Bermuda’s reliance on land tax revenue was indirectly discriminatory.

  223. lokes – Again. The statistics suggest that this generalization isn’t as far off base as we would like to think. Conversely, I could argue that her scenario is stereotyping blacks as less-educated, paid less, etc. But the statistics back that up. As they do back up Ms Winfield’s ‘generalizations’ in general. At what point does something supported by statistics stop becoming a generalization or stereotype and become fact? As in: It’s a fact that whites are more likely to be homeowners.

    As in: It’s a fact that whites are paid more than blacks, often for equal work.

    Of course there are always exceptions. No not every white kid is sitting pretty in their family home… but let’s be honest. I know a hell of a lot more black people who are renters than white Bermudians who are renters.

  224. “The statistics suggest that this generalization isn’t as far off base as we would like to think.”

    I do not believe that her illustration was actually representative of a typical white Bermudian family, certainly not from my experience, at any rate.

  225. lokes – I cannot find the article that you reference however my initial response would be that yes, this would unfairly target blacks as real estate has generally been the ONLY means of investment, rather than proof that home ownership amongst blacks and whites is somehow equitable. But I could be wrong. However, given the disparity in incomes I think it would be reasonable to infer that the opportunity or means to own property would be at least proportionately skewed.

  226. Loki – It’s somewhat illogical to suggest that income disparities could produce equitable acquisition of wealth.

  227. “lokes – I cannot find the article that you reference however my initial response would be that yes, this would unfairly target blacks as real estate has generally been the ONLY means of investment, rather than proof that home ownership amongst blacks and whites is somehow equitable.”

    Sorry, there is no article of which I’m aware. I was actually present in the room when Walton made the point. I’d like to know the stats, but I suspect that more land in Bermuda is owned by black Bermudians than is owned by white Bermudians, though the historical reason for that is by no means a shining beacon of equity.

  228. “Loki – It’s somewhat illogical to suggest that income disparities could produce equitable acquisition of wealth.”

    I’ve done no such thing: I was addressing your assertion that white Bermudians are more likely to own property than black Bermudians, which I don’t believe is correct.

  229. lokes – not trying to split hairs here, but if you accept that there is a disparity in income, then surely by extension you must accept that the chance of acquisition, or at the very least, quality of wealth/property will be negatively impacted.

  230. “lokes – not trying to split hairs here, but if you accept that there is a disparity in income, then surely by extension you must accept that the chance of acquisition, or at the very least, quality of wealth/property will be negatively impacted.”

    Yes, of course, but that doesn’t mean that blacks are – within the historical context of Bermuda – less likely to own property (note: I didn’t address ‘wealth’), because I believe that you’ll find that that very historical context makes it more likely that they own property. Again, I was simply addressing your assertion regarding property ownership, not overall wealth.

  231. Oh. And for the record I’m not suggesting that all white Bermudians are home owners. I’m suggesting that they are MORE likely to be homeowners; in the same way that based on the prison population at Westgate, black bermudian males are MORE likely than their white counterparts to be incarcerated. And for the same reasons (ie, education, socio-economic status, family situation, etc)…

  232. “I’m suggesting that they are MORE likely to be homeowners”

    Ah, well, I think you’ll find that that’s not the case, for the historical reasons already mentioned. As I’ve said, though, that shouldn’t be taken to be some demonstration of the equitable distribution of wealth, because blacks invested in land because they had no other choice, really.

  233. many blacks today have inherited property…blacks in the past worked togeather to buy land when it was cheep compared 2 todays prices. So if u talkin bout blacks with no inheritence buying land…they would have 2 b rich at todays prices. No average black person can do it.
    N most whites…the rich ones of yesterday buy n stole land in vast amounts…so todays whites who have inherited that land have been given silver spoons in their mouths based on how they (their ancestors) were able to get the land in the past….IE tuckers town

  234. I have now had a chance to read Lynne Winfield’s article. My reading of it is that she has made gross generalizations about the average white person AND the average black person – maybe the print space gave her no option !

    However, there are any number of black people who do not fall into that stereotype, and there are any number of white people who also do not fall into that stereotype. While the Premier’s mother was in fact a member of the UBP, I do not think this detracts from the fact that they managed to send their son to University etc – and they happened to be black too!! Oh what a shock! If you want to go back further, and deal with slavery, didn’t the Robinson family (I think the ancestors of Delay Robinson) , a black family have slaves?!? I admit that this would have been an exception to the general rule, but it is still a fact. I have known Lynne for a long time, but recently my impression is that she has reached the point that her ex-husband referred to, i.e. that she has gone so far that even black people seem wonder what the hell she is talking about.

    The point I suppose I am trying to make is that you can not pigeon hole a group of people or a particular race into any one convenient pocket.

    In response to Son of O, yes, if you look back through the records you will see that my family owned slaves! This is the reason why so many of my fellow Bermudians have the same name as me. Could you say I have a silver spoon – most probably yes. Was I able to build my house because I inherited some land, yes. However, just like many of the people of are struggling, I too also work on average in excess of 12 hours a day. While that “silver spoon” has helped me in paying fees and other monetary expenses, it has nothing to do with getting a First Class Honours degree or being recognized on a world wide basis as one of the best in my field. Those came down to pure hard work and dedication. For people to insinuate that I only got where I am as a result of my race is f**ing insulting.

    Notwithstanding that, many people see what I have managed to achieve and put it down to my name and my colour – which frankly I find insulting. While the concept of white privilege does exist, and family wealth enabled me to attend the university of my choice without a scholarship, those concepts will not MAKE a person be successful, only personal dedication will. The big problem I see in Bermuda with the “yuff” (be they black or white) is that they expect something for free. Nothing is for free. So many Bermudians expect to be able to walk into a job and earn $250K+ simply because they are Bermudian. Welcome to the real world folks. If you want that kind of earning power, you have to work for it, and work damn hard, and be good at what you do.

    Hang me out to dry at the person with the “silver spoon” if you wish, but in todays’ environment, you all know it to be true.

    RANT OVER

    Pitts Bay

  235. *cheerleading section over here*

    I’m loving reading all this!

    Do me a favour… Keep going!

    When we get to an agreement, can we start talking about solutions next?

    My comp should be back up and running by then and I’d love to get in on that convo!

  236. no need 2 rant at me dude…..im pointing out de reality that people see based on historical and present day racism n classism practiced by eliete whites n blacks as well as racists whites that still live here.
    Many who happen to b black n who have worked just as hard as u are still being denied opportunities here in 2008 based on their politics, their “class” and or their race. Blacks r still paid less then whites n women still paid less then men. An I add its not a white supremist government in power but yet the problem still exists under a so called black power government.
    So our issues here r more complex than color. U may find it insulting, but thats life. Im insulted that ive worked hard as well but still being denied opportunity in this place. while whites forigners and rich eletist people of both colors grab up everything. N my story aint unique, but thats life in this place.
    The silver spoon u inherited has helped u none the less, we who got brass spoons r still doing our best…i guess u need to give thanks to your ancestors for doing whatever they did to help u out.
    a question i can ask is…what have u and others who have getten the inherited siver spood based on misdeeds of ya ancestors done to correct that particular wrong that is still connected to your name and there 4 insultiing u when this particular issue is brought up?… n b4 u start trippin again…that dont mean throwing money around…u dont have to ansa that…its ment as food 4 thought.
    Many white people have this perception/attitude that since theire ancestors did the crime, they their desendents have nothing to do with correcting the wrong. This thought process…or act of disconnecting yourselves does nothing to heal things cause it means your quite willing to let the imbalances that have come about from your ancestors collective actions, actions that u benifit from today..stand and continue.
    If generations of whites who have evolved in their thinking to realise what their ancestors have done was wrong…acted to fix the spin off effects way back then..the issues of today wont exist. n this aint just about bermuda but globally.

  237. Lokes, I take your point about real estate being the only form of investment for black Bermudians, and a very vital one. I am trying to find the statistics to either back my claim or assist me in firming inserting my foot into my mouth. Unfortunately the government portal is down so I’m not sure whether the most recent Census info is available online.

    Pitts Bay – I think Ms. Winfield’s piece was an elaborate attempt at applying the principle of white privilege rather than suggesting that that is the experience of ALL white Bermudians or ALL black Bermudians. I think that she was simply attempting to explain how we ended up with various disparities in education, housing, etc, rather than provide model of black and white Bermudian families. The point was that black bermudians by virtue of skin colour have been faced with obstacles and impediments to progress that white Bermudians have not had to face. That is not to suggest that life has been a walk in the park for all white Bermudians, or conversely a struggle for ALL black Bermudians, but is it really that difficult to accept that white Bermudians were treated differently in society just by virtue of being white in a system that automatically viewed and treated them as superior?

    Personally, I think we tend to try and take everything that is said in regards to race too literal. An automatic defensiveness goes up at the mere suggestion that whites by and large had it easier than whites, which is not excluding or taking away from any white struggle, merely stating the facts. Facts which can be back up by the numbers and a glimpse into history.

    Now I take the point that readers may run the risk of entrenching their perceptions about whites, or blacks, however I would like to think that most right-thinking individuals capable of critical thought can see the bigger picture and the message, rather than get caught up on how many friends they have that are actually represented by Ms winfields piece.

    And if not through white privilege, how is it that we have come to the point that we find ourselves at now in terms of socio-economic disparities?

  238. “…siver spood based on misdeeds of ya ancestors…”

    Why does the simple fact that my ancestors made money automatically lead you to believe that there were misdeeds? To be honest, where they made their money was in the IB business. which has in turn created a huge amount of wealth throughout Bermuda, to Bermudians both black and white”

    Pitts Bay

  239. “That is not to suggest that life has been a walk in the park for all white Bermudians, or conversely a struggle for ALL black Bermudians, but is it really that difficult to accept that white Bermudians were treated differently in society just by virtue of being white in a system that automatically viewed and treated them as superior?”

    CO – Agreed. Historically you are correct. And as the pendulum swings the other way, white Bermudians are still being treated differently in a society just by virtue of being white in a system that automatically viewed and treated them as irrelevant! That is the system we live in today, at least from a governmental perspective. Still not right, is it?

    Pitts Bay

  240. yo…… dont waste time with symantics…u also said ya family had slaves…anyways if u dont wanna b real then my part in this convo ends now. Outta all i said thats all u got outta it?…this is y the race issue continues im going to bed so i can go work my slave job, in the only line of work that this place allows me to be ineven though I have a degree.

  241. Son of O – I took more out of what you said, but that is what stuck out as the thrust of what you were trying to say – mea culpa!

    The reality, IMHO, is that there is less of a race issue in Bermuda than there is a class issue.

  242. Son of O – I am very conscious of what appears in the “slave owner records”. I appreciate that what happened back then was wrong, albeit legal at the time. This is also why I am very open about my perceptions and also why I call it like I see and feel it. If that can not be accepted, then there can be no discussion – similar to the Big Con, which was not a conversation in any way.

    Pitts Bay

  243. ” n b4 u start trippin again…that dont mean throwing money around…u dont have to ansa that…its ment as food 4 thought.”

    Thanks – although I think if there is excess wealth, it can be applied back to the community. I know my father did that many many times. Sometimes as loans, sometimes as gifts – generally the loans were never re-paid. These were almost exclusively to Black Bermudians. Scholarships and academic assistance is what I personally believe is the best way of assisting people, and this is what I do. C’est la vie – maybe there is more I could do. Let me be convinced!

    Pitts Bay

  244. Wow, really impressed at the reading, I know this is just the ‘small’ conversation, but seems a fair bit more constructive than the ‘big’ one!

    Playing devil’s advocate a little bit here, the correlation of race and prison is extremely high. What is also extremely high is the correlation of single-parent households and prison time.

    Now I don’t deny that whites have had an easier time with many facets of life, which I’ve said on here before, particularly in the past (for example I honestly don’t believe that if myself and a black Bermudian strolled into the Bank of Butterfield, and asked for a mortgage, we’d have different experiences), and still continuing now in some instances, however I’m beginning to wonder how much of the discrepency in kids born in the last 10/15 years is going to come down purely to different upbringings.

    I’m not trying to be offensive here, but I know that white Bermudians with munchkins tend to get and stay married more than black Bermudians with munchkins. Again, not trying to offend anyone, I’m hoping we can agree on that. A double-parent home is proven in a million studies by people cleverer than me to be more conducive to later success. Therefore, is another factor in the inequality, particularly amongst young Bermudians, the discrepency in ‘traditional’ families that exists between whites and blacks?

    If yes, then how can we solve this? Clearly the churches don’t work. Nor can government really do all that much. It has to be a cultural shift.

    So helpfully I may have suggested a root problem that has no solution. 😦

  245. Lost In Flatts,

    “I’m not trying to be offensive here, but I know that white Bermudians with munchkins tend to get and stay married more than black Bermudians with munchkins. Again, not trying to offend anyone, I’m hoping we can agree on that. A double-parent home is proven in a million studies by people cleverer than me to be more conducive to later success. Therefore, is another factor in the inequality, particularly amongst young Bermudians, the discrepency in ‘traditional’ families that exists between whites and blacks?” Do you have statistics to back that up or are you saying the people that you know and interact with?

    I know white Bermudians “with munchkins” who have stayed married and I know some who have not stayed married, just as I know blacks “with munchkins” who have divorced and others who have stayed together. I also know many single mothers, both black and white, whose children have gone on to college and are “successful” and I know of two-parent homes where the children have not gone to college.
    Studies will also show that dysfunctional families come in all shapes, sizes and colours. I don’t think that there is anything such as a “traditional family”. Divorce is not the only reason for single-parent households.

    By the way, Barack Obama was raised by a single mother (and his grandparents).

  246. lif – that’s a necessary and honest observation to make, but when it comes to racially monolithic patterns in a post-segregation society, you’ve always got to ask the follow up question.

    why would black families be disproportionately dysfunctional when compared to white families?

    when every social cue and practical reality demonstrates that your life, your future and your decisions aren’t valuable, maintaining a healthy relationship with your spouse and children isn’t going to be prioritized as fully. frankly, it can’t be.

    this is the degree of damage that has been and is being done to black folk. to be clear, it’s equally damaging to white folks since the way we all see the world is framed with these cognitive blind spots that make it impossible to be fully truthful with and connected to one another. as in, it’s some kind of enculturated inferiority that black folk came up with on their own that leads to higher divorce rates and out of wedlock births as opposed to the effect of slavery, segregation and ongoing social oppression.

    PS actually, as an attendee of what i believe to be more brri meetings/wrap up dialogue sessions than anyone involved in this post, this sharing is essentially the same in content and tone of the big conversation.

  247. after considering it, my first sentence should read with the following amendment:

    “…but when it comes to racially slanted patterns in a post-segregation society…”

    sorry for the mis-statement.

  248. Ms. Furbert,

    Are you taking issue with what he’s saying? Do you disagree? I don’t think Lost in Flatts was denouncing or condemning black society for this, whether it be factual or opinion. I think he was just pointing out yet another vestige of racist history that is making the struggle continue.

    I don’t believe that he was saying that ALL single parent homes raise failures, nor that two parent homes raise successes.

    Isn’t this the very thing that was so brilliantly and openly talked about last night? Not getting your back up and citing individual exceptions to disprove the whole?

    Isn’t you pointing out that Mr. Obama was raised by his single mother kinda the same thing as someone jumping up and saying “But I’m not like that” when people bring up white privilege?

    Someguy, you, too. I know LiF and I don’t think he was condemning, just pointing out another factor in the struggle. We’ve had conversations about this in the past and I’m sure he understands your points there.

  249. @ Ms. Furbert – I don’t, to hand, have statistics backing up my ascertion, it’s based purely on my own experiences. And of course there are exceptions, but I would be genuinely surprised if the % of single-parent black families in Bermuda is not significantly higher than the % of single-parent white families. If you have these statistics, by all means share them and I’ll take that surprise on the chin. There was a report on the government portal, but that’s shut down for maintenance. Apparently 40% of under 18 year olds in Bermuda are living in single-parent households. That is absolutely out of hand.

    @ Someguy – If you’re asking why the racist legacies of the past would impact family structure, I have several thoughts, but none are conclusive. One would be that it’s alot easier to stay focused on sorting out family issues when you’re not working 3 jobs to keep food on the table. Another would be level of sexual education, though I really don’t think this is a problem in Bermuda. Do you have an answer?

    So perhaps this is an affect rather than a cause, however I think it’s worth considering. I mean, stealing a point from the VexedBermoothes website, the Economist found that a child being brought up in a single-parent household in the US has a 5 times higher chance of ending up below the poverty line. Twice as likely to drop out of school. And so forth.

    My point is that if we accept being raised in a single-parent household (exceptions aside) is proportionally more likely to lead to less education and less wealth, and that proportionally more blacks are brought up in this environment than whites, surely this is a key driver at the rift between the race wealth divide?

  250. elvis – oh, i didn’t think lif was condeming at all. if that was the tone my post took, i apologize. was just attempting to get right to the hub issue rather than focus on the symptoms. often, the effects of institutional racial inequity are so loud it’s easy to forget what the core problem is.

    lif – those are both good, solid suggestions. another would be something i referenced earlier in this thread; legislative policy designed specifically to destabilize black folk and families to preserve the status quo.

    – freed male slaves under 40 had to leave Bermuda within 3 months. if they ignored the law, they could be imprisoned or executed. if they returned, they could be re-enslaved. can’t maintain a family under those circumstances, which were state mandated.

    – black folk couldn’t will property. as in, parents couldn’t pass down land to their children. difficult to build a real, healthy family legacy under those circumstances. again, government policy.

    – black folks were subject to duty taxes for performing/practicing certain trades(mechanics, masonry, etc.)while white folks had no such restrictions. another law making it more difficult for black families to earn money and, in turn, generate opportunity for further progress for their family.

    amongst many others. the whole framework for human existence on our island has, at it’s core and through it’s branches, devalued black people and families. so, the obvious result will be that black people will devalue themselves and their families – creating the disproportionate dysfunction that leads to single parent households being the disproportionately dominant structure for black folks.

    to be clear, though – single parent households can and do obviously raise productive geniuses every single day. but, statistically, for any number of reasons, kids have healthier lives with two folks in the house. more support, more attention, more love = everyone wins.

  251. I do not think anyone would deny that the past has an impact on the present. The single parent family pheonomena may will be impacted and influenced by the past. I would tend to agree that being part of a single parent family puts a child at a disadvantage. But, isn’t the bigger question that arises out of this, if correct, what can we as a society do about it. In my mind, you can not change the past (although you need to recognize it), but we can change the future, and the most effective way to change that future is through education, both in the formal sense of school, but also in the family and churches and social clubs. The kicker is that the most effective way to do that is through role models or people in authority, which generally leads to the people leading the country – who, IMHO, are not great role models.

    Pitts Bay

  252. Someguy

    I am not trying the diminish the impact of those events or the legislation that put them into effect, but the first item must be from about at least 174 years ago, the other two i am not sure how far back they were in place. In your opinion, how much impact that the first item actually have on today’s society. I appreciate that the impact back then would have been drastic for a family unit, but at what point do these specific issues no longer play a part on someone’s psyche. I know it is apples and oranges, but it is fairly clear from the earlist records that my ancestors came to Bermuda as indentured servants, they were whipped and branded and had all sorts of things done to them, even being forced to leave the island as a punishment for some perceived crime (which is the connection I made to your post 🙂 ). The concept of white privilege would have enabled them to get back in track faster than a black person in the same position, but they did, and instead of looking back on those issues as some sort of affront, I look bach on it as an interesting part of history. But that is the perspective of a white guy with a “silver spoon”.

    In all honesty I would be interested in your opinion as to when the past simply becomes history and ceases to be something that defines us. Or can it ever? I don’t know the answer.

    Pitts Bay

  253. Pitts Bay – As long as the playing field continues to be uneven, particularly in terms of education I think that we’re forever bound in some way to history.

  254. pitts bay – exactly. it’ll take real, collective social movement to swing the pendulum anywhere near the center. that means us bringing an end to the wilfull segregation we participate in every day on virtually every level outside the workplace.

    black folk have to continue to spend time in and around white spaces/environments and build meaningful, truthful relationships with white folks.

    and(more importantly, imho)

    white folk have to really start to spend time in and around black spaces/environments and build meaningful, truthful relationships with black folks.

    the fear of discomfort has to mean less than the repsonsibility to care for people in an active way. particularly those who are different, since the difference is the particular reason for the distance between. y’know?

  255. “the fear of discomfort has to mean less than the repsonsibility to care for people in an active way. particularly those who are different, since the difference is the particular reason for the distance between. y’know?”

    But there’s a distinction between ‘discomfort’ and actively encouraging hatred of a segment of the population, and going out of one’s way to be abusive and insulting. I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat it ad nauseum if necessary: the racial and/or racist rhetoric will never bring whites to the table, and the sooner that the PLP stops using such rhetoric for political purposes the better.

  256. pitts bay – true, but the historic details are what frame the context for the time that followed it, the current space we occupy and how the future will feel and look like. plus, as you acknowledge, the unfair/immoral laws that affected your ancestors were evil but surmountable over time. the legislative attitude and, more importantly, the national perspective towards black folks has always been enculturated inferiority that we haven’t yet been able to whittle down all the way.

    it went from a state mandate against willing property to black kids to it being illegal to learn to read and be educated to it being illegal to have particular immediately accessible/high mobility potential jobs due to segregation, etc.

    all because they’re black. until we fully excavate that fact and refuse to ignore how fully it saturates every part of our society without feeling misguided individual guilt as opposed to finding constant reassurance that changed thinking is necessary – we won’t get anywhere.

  257. Someguy – its all very well to say that white folk have to step out of their gilded comfort zone but you ignore the fact that aspiration only flows one way (unless you are Tony Benn). Most black folks would rather be a member of MOC than PHC, I know would. If you look around the island right now the only places that will tell you to fcuk off purely based on race are the local sports clubs….

  258. @ CO – Surely playing fields are always uneven? I don’t think an even playing field has ever existed in history, in any society, in any part of the Earth. By saying we should wait til then to get over the past, well just seems like we’re in it for the longhaul… 😦 I’m not saying stick a date on it, but I have to have at least some optimisim that in a generation or two we’ll be able to go, alright, I am who I am because of history, but today there’s nothing standing between me and success. Regardless of gender, race, and so forth.

    @ Someguy – I don’t disagree with you, but the problem is that as long as you make black spaces/environments unwelcoming, whites aren’t going to start going. I mean all this crap from Marc Bean about the PLP having wide open doors to whites and all that, at exactly the same time Dr. Brown is calling us racist – it may be an open door but it’s a very heavily guarded one.

    And making comparisons to the first blacks joining certain white societies is fair, but keep in mind what they had to gain from going through that door. As you’ve pointed out previously, whites don’t really have much to gain, on an individual level, to going through that discomfort.

    The only way forward is to make black organisations actually welcoming to whites, and to give whites actual incentives to mingle. Problem is, why should blacks bother? They’re the ones with the inequality, they’re the ones with the bigger issues.

    So we get stuck where we are. Blacks blame whites for not joining them to break down the racial divide, while whites are given little to no reason to do so.

    Read @ beach-lime the proposition that perhaps with Wayne gone, he could gather a few other ex-UBP and ex-PLP’ers together, and form an actual new movement. To me, that would be a great compromise. Clearly it’s not the old UBP, clearly they wouldn’t be overtly anti-white and clearly they’d have some quality, experienced people leading it. And if enough sensible PLP/UBP mps thought about it, they’d leave and join it, and then wham we need an election and there’s a real option. It’d be a wonderful snowball of support. Or could have chance of snowball in hell.

    But I can remain optimistic, right 🙂

  259. loki – i loathe using quotes(it always feels like a copout from thinking), but:

    be the change you want to see.

    we all know bermuda’s racial division and oppression existed for centuries pre the PLP. we also know that black folks have ignored and continue to ignore all sorts of racially inappropriate, offensive language and actions in order to acheive successful, productive lives and healthy relationships. the maintenance of a respice finem kind of attitude has been the only way to sustain under the circumstances, i think.

    we also know white folks have never been particularly willing to engage the integrative change process. as in, it’s always had to happen on terms, at a pace and in a tone they were comfortable with. that’s absolutely understandable, but considering the reality of the dynamic i don’t know if that’s a reasonable impediment at this point. to be clearer, it is obviously still an impediment, but i don’t believe it to be reasonable.

    there’s too much to be done, and too much has been left for too long for a dozen sentences to excuse ignoring the process of correcting centuries of inequity.

  260. Isn’t it interesting that all of the negatives that affect blacks in Bermuda affects blacks wherever they are today. That is the point that was made by Dr. Joy DeGruy Leary in her book Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome. “The systematic dehumanization of African slaves was the initial trauma, explains Leary, and generations of their descendents have borne the scars. Since that time, Americans of all ethnic backgrounds have been inculcated and immersed in a fabricated (but effective) system of race “hierarchy,” where light-skin privilege still dramatically affects the likelihood of succeeding in American society.”

  261. I’ve got a purely academic question (which is obvious based on my skin colour) but where does the affect of self-victimization fit into the socio-economic disparity? Does it even play a part at all and if so, how can it be countered? Or adversely, is it more of a term that those of the lighter persuasion use to excuse away said disparities in a way that effectively absolves them of much guilt?

  262. mambo – you’re completely right. what you’re right about, though, is how absolutely wrong we all are.

    that’s exactly why it’s important to recall dr. king’s most powerful idea. not the cliched, unfairly oversimplified and neutered dream notion, but the revolution of values required to really change that which we aspire to.

    the aspirations humans should have are for real, meaningful collective liberty through the preservation of individual freedom. desiring membership at the mon couldn’t be further disconnected from that idea, practically and perceptively. using resources to acquire expensive nonsense for expensive nonsense’s sake is obviously what folk in this place aspire to be able to do – but, clearly, it is such expensive nonsense.

    all that said, this is a horribly idealistic position, obviously. but, ideals are what make humans specific, valuable creatures. as such, nothing could be worth more.

  263. @ Ms. Furbert – How do you believe blacks were before the European led slave trade? I mean, they did have 5 thousands years of existence before this. You seem to define an entire race by one chapter in their history, albeit a particularly dark one.

    Basically your quote above states that non only all of those people of African descent in America, but also every single other person in America has had their reality altered in an irrevocable way by the slave trade. Regardless of their involvement in it, even if they’re Asian-American and arrived last Tuesday.

    My point is that by focusing so utterly and wholly of the affect of the slavery, we run a very large risk of being left behind on the global scale. Do you think the Indians and the Chinese care?

  264. “be the change you want to see.”

    Why would the PLP wish to actively prevent change by continuing to employ the kind of hateful and divisive language that’s it employs? If you know for a fact that by continuing to along a particular path is destructive and counterproductive, why would you carry on regardless…………unless your willing to ignore change for the sake of political expediency?

    I’m telling you as an absolute fact that these behaviours make it less likely that whites will ever meaningfully engage in racial discourse, and you can either accept that and do something about it, or stick two fingers up and say that it’s not your problem, and not your responsibility. Believe me, I’m not saying this to score points or upset anyone, but it’s a fact.

  265. Loki is correct on that point. It is a fact that the attitude of the current PLP administration means that any politically orchastrated attempt at the Big Con, in whatever form, will fail.

  266. LiF – I believe the perspective of an Asian American arriving last Tuesday in the pursuit of the American Dream to be very different for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that the stereotypes and prejudices are different (ie, a lot of folks assume that Asians are all smarter)… Also, by and large they have no reason not to believe that the ‘American Dream’ can be realized, that they can own it. Which is in stark contrast to blacks in America who have been repeatedly excluded from the process and even have that reality of exclusion written in law.

    And for a lot of those individuals, they have immigrated from places where even partial attainment of the American dream is desirable, whereas black Americans have born, lived, and died seeing others attain it but excluded from it themselves. Hell… it’s taken 43 presidents to finallly get a HALF black one!

  267. LiF- You have to bear in mind that Africans were transported from their own lives, established systems of hierarchy, customs, tribal groups, etc, and transplanted and forced to exist inside of a culture whose hierarchy was based in skin colour, which was also enforced by law.

  268. I guess my question is, as always…

    Then what?

    Once we’ve defined and addressed the causes of the disparity, acknowledged and accepted our part in history, come to a common ground in the conversation (which, in this particular conversation, I think we’re pretty much at… I see a lot of folks saying the same thing, just in different ways…), addressed the points needing addressing etc…

    Then what?

    We’re THIS close to understanding each other. Our points are made, I think.

    Where do we go from here?

  269. loki – i’m not suggesting that the language used by plp members hasn’t made white folks uncomfortable. i’m not suggesting that the approach made by these individuals shouldn’t change. i’m not suggesting that the approach won’t change.

    what i’m saying is that it’s indefensible for white folks to use maybe an 8 x 11 page worth of mean/misunderstood(depending on your point of view)language as justification to disengage from the social justice process.

    it’s understandable, but absolutely indefensible. especially considering the sequence of events that grew these circumstances. angry black people expressing their disatisfaction about color codified social inequity have always been demonized or pathologized in our culture. always. they’ve either been sick or crazy – at best, worthy of offhand dismissal. at worst, deserving of public execution.

    that’s the context that we’re working with. this in no way, shape or form gives black folk a pass to say whatever insensitive mess they like. however, white folks must consider the place that black folks’ anger and frustration is coming from and, equally, the space that their own righteous indignance and presumed moral superiority is borne out of.

    beyond all that, at this stage, fairness is immaterial. it’s not about winning the argument, it’s about doing the right thing independent of what you superfluosly misunderstand or what is superfluosly misunderstood about you.

  270. @ CO – Okay, so if every black person on Earth is born with a perception of their own place in a social hierarchy, what can be done?

    I don’t believe nothing is the answer. I do believe that yes, there is some part of the black psychi that has this predisposition towards thinking they’re ‘less’, but I also believe that it can be completely overwhelmed by the environment in which they exist.

    For example, 100 years ago there were no black athletes. Presumably a young black man playing football would just assume that he was inferior because he was banned from playing professionally. Today, black athletes are represented above and beyond their population %. Therefore surely they overcame the prejudice against them, in their minds, and now believe the skies the limit?

    Or is that a flawed example due to the physical nature of sport versus I guess the more mental nature of business. Maybe it is. Not sure in my own mind.

  271. elvis – you’re right. the next step is applying the understanding and, frankly, cutting each other some slack in order to keep on understanding further.

    if a plp representative or just regular ol’ black bermudian(they’re essentially interchangeable, mind)says something that hurts, stop before you let that pain determine your perspective on them and the people they stand next to and the folks who voted for them. wait a second and consider who they are and what they know based on how race has limited all our experiences. give them the benefit of the doubt, because 9 times out of 10, they’ll prove to deserve it.

    if a ubp representative or just regular ol’ white bermudians say some insensitive, uninformed mess about black folks, stop before you let that pain determine your perspective on them and the people they stand next to and the folks who voted for them. wait a second and consider who they are and what they know based on how race has limited all our experiences. give them the benefit of the doubt, because 9 times out of 10, they’ll prove to deserve it.

    also, more than anything else as it relates to folk in this space: trust black people when they talk about race. seriously. we’re experts on what it means and how it moves, subtly and overtly. our survival is evidence of that.

    so, if we tell you something you said, shared or did is racist that doesn’t mean YOU’RE racist. it means the thing you said, shared or did was racist. that’s all. that behaviour can be addressed, apologized for and changed. but, again, 9 times out of 10, we know what we’re talking about.

  272. “Why would the PLP wish to actively prevent change by continuing to employ the kind of hateful and divisive language that’s it employs? If you know for a fact that by continuing to along a particular path is destructive and counterproductive, why would you carry on regardless…………unless your willing to ignore change for the sake of political expediency?”

    What you may consider hateful and divisive language may be considered as reality to some of us. Years ago I had a white English man as my supervisor who always referred to me as “Golliwog”. Some people would refer to his “pet name” for me as racially divisive. But was it? I didn’t think so at the time and I don’t think so now because of his behaviour towards me. I don’t think he even understood what he was saying.

    To say that the PLP is actively preventing change is ridiculous. Would we be having this conversation if Dr. Brown did not begin the Big Conversation? I think not.

    Jim Woolrdige made a statement once that “as long as little white boys think they can tell us what to do” it’s okay. Was that racially divisive?

    Uncle Elvis,

    Exceptions to the rule help to make up the whole. There are many exceptions to the rule regarding single parent families. I just cited one, only because he’s probably the most famous person in the world today. It is not the same as white privilege.

  273. Someguy, whether you or I think it’s indefensible is neither here nor there, and you can argue about that until you’re blue in the face, quite frankly. I’m giving you facts, and I’m not commenting on whether those facts amount to a scenario that’s fair. It is a fact that whites will not come to the table whilst the PLP continues to make whites feel demonized and insulted. Whether it’s fair for whites to refuse to enter into racial discourse because of this is another issue, but it won’t change that essential fact. The question is whether the PLP cares more about healing the country’s racial divide or political expediency and, quite frankly, under Ewart Brown I think that political expediency comes out on top every time.

    To shamefully repeat my own comments from elsewhere:

    So long as the PLP is willing to use racist and/or racial rhetoric for political purposes, most whites will be unwilling to take the PLP seriously on the topic of race;

    So long as Ewart Brown is the driving force behind any national discussion on race, whites will be unwilling to enter into a sincere and meaningful discussion on race.

    You may not agree that this scenario is fair, but I don’t think that that’s the point, for the reasons that I’ve already stated.

  274. lif – over a century ago, virtually all black folks in our country were labourers by virtue of their birth. forced athletes without the benefit of endorsement deals or cheering spectators, because of their presumed physical superiority and mental inferiority. so, black folk going towards professional sports as a career, successfully or otherwise, is connected directly to the arbitrary limitations placed on people based on their race.

    100 years ago, a disproportionate amount of black americans could only aspire to be farmers and fieldhands.

    100 years later, a disproportionate number of black americans aspire to, paraphrasing christoper wallace, sling crack rock or have a wicked jump shot.

    because that’s all that the social hierarchy states, implicitly and explicitly, they’re capable of doing. too stupid and immoral to own a business that’s not illegal, too physical to be cerebreal enough for any career that doesn’t involve running and jumping.

    it’s disgusting. but, it’s real. the only way it won’t be is if we call it as such every chance we get.

  275. LiF – lil black babies are born just like lil white babies… the concept of self and self-worth is determined/dictated/influenced by the images, experiences, and teachings that we are all exposed to. I don’t think that there is an inherent predisposition at birth to blacks thinking they are inferior anymoreso than I think there is an inherent predisposition at birth to whites thinking they are superior. This is all picked up along the way. It is a LEARNED behaviour/way of thinking rather than an inherent quality or defect.

    In your example I don’t think the young black athlete felt inferior BECAUSE he was banned from sports, I think he knew that he was good enough but learned to exist within the context of the limitations placed on it. It had nothing to do with his own self-doubt, rather the glass ceiling and shackles that society placed on him… Inherent inferiority would negate any need or requirement towards changing the system which we know not to be the case.

  276. loki – all right. i understand.

    as long as you don’t think it’s ok, acceptable or defensible that one man and a dozen sentences are enough to keep tens of thousands of white folks collectively disdainful of the process to acheive social justice and racial equity, i think we’re fine.

    i appreciate the clarity and the dialogue.

  277. @ Ms. Furbert – If Dr. Brown hadn’t initiated the ‘BIG’ conversation, I’d still be talking about, just like I was before he came to power, and just like I’ll be doing after he leaves power. Did you wake up that morning and decide, right, now that Dr. Brown has kicked this off, I’ll start speaking about race openly, because before I had no reason to?

    @ Someguy – I think cutting people slack is definitely a part of it, most importantly from the side of the media. Unfortunately I have a ridiculousl cynical view of all media, and distrust them in general, so I doubt that they’ll change. Headlines sell, regardless of the truth behind them.

    But us normal Bermudians just need to chill out sometimes. It helps when leadership provide that message, so maybe our leadership could consider being a bit more sensitive.

    Whenever a professional athlete says something wrong or acts in an unethical way, they’re quick to be chastised because younger people will emulate them. I think that Dr. Brown needs to learn that if he’s happy to be overtly confrontational and use race extensively, this will trickle down into society in general. The thing with him is that I think he wants it to.

  278. Loki – hopefully Bermudians, particularly white Bermudians can accept that moving forward together and healing the racial divide is bigger than politics or Ewart Brown ever will be. I understand that it may be a turnoff for whites to hear certain things coming out of the mouths of our leaders (who also happen to be black), however hopefully it will not be viewed as an impediment to us sitting down one on one and having the little conversation. As we have been doing in this format for the last two days.

    To blame Ewart Brown or anybody else for us failing to do our part to stimulate conversation and effect change would be doing a disservice to our country and future generations of Bermudians. I am a firm believer that change starts from the bottom up. Regardless of what politicians may say. And the more we understand each other, we can start to demand better from each other, and by extension, from our leaders.

  279. @ Someguy – fair enough, that’s not where I was trying to go with the analogy, honestly. Just watched the football last night so was on my mind…

    @ CO – I agree, other than falling on our backs and grabbing something pressed into our palms, I don’t believe we’re born with anything predispositions at all. So if it’s all learned behaviour, at least we have a chance of changing it. Do you not think a black Bermudian born today should have reason to believe they can get to the very top? If not, what about their environment would prevent this?

  280. “it’s not about winning the argument, it’s about doing the right thing independent of what you superfluosly misunderstand or what is superfluosly misunderstood about you.”

    It is much easier for a small group (i.e. the current PLP administration) who are in positions of power to guide that process with an attitude of inclusivness, than it is for the wide and weird class of persons who are classified as white to form into one cohesive group with a common thread. So why don’t they do this – IMO it is because absolute power corrupts absolutely, and as many people said in history, power is the ultimate drug, the total addiction. Once you have it, it takes great strength of character to let it go, or take actions that may lead you to lose it. IMO they are drunk on power and do not want to risk losing it.

  281. as long as you don’t think it’s ok, acceptable or defensible that one man and a dozen sentences are enough to keep tens of thousands of white folks collectively disdainful of the process to acheive social justice and racial equity, i think we’re fine.

    I think that’s a misrepresentation of what’s been said.

    “One man and a dozen sentences” haven’t kept “tens of thousands of white folks collectively disdainful of the process to achieve social justice and racial equality”.
    “One man”, and several others, “and a dozen sentences” that seem to be designed solely to demonize and condemn whites, as well as a seeming blind eye to racist, baseless verbal and written political attacks by members of the party, have kept “tens of thousands of white folks collectively” from seeing the PLP as a viable choice for their support.
    There’s a big difference between a political party and “the process to achieve social justice and racial equality”.

    If anything, this “one man and a dozen sentences” has given the impression to “tens of thousands of white folks” that the PLP, as it stands now (and not the Party itself, just the current administration), is, in fact, just the opposite of “the process to achieve social justice and racial equality”.

    (Just a note, you’re also understating with “a dozen sentences” and “maybe an 8 x 11 page worth of mean/misunderstood(depending on your point of view)language”)

    Ms. Furbert,

    You seem defensive. I was trying to converse. I wasn’t attacking. Perhaps, because of past experiences, you’re wary of engaging me, expecting an attack, or a trick. I completely understand that. However, I assure you that this is not the case. So, please, if you will be so kind, can you please re-read my post and try to look at what I was trying to say and address that? CO, Loki, LiF, Someguy and the rest have got this thread into a good place, where we’re all coming to understanding. I’d really like for us to do that, too.

  282. LiF – Theoretically, yes. As long as barriers continue to be broken, then theoretically individuals should feel that they are able to achieve more because they have seen others do it. I’m not sure however how well this resonates though with those individuals living in the backatown with limited opportunities as far as housing and education go. These are the environmental factors, along with a lack of role models that then dictates whether this potential is actually realized or not. For a lot of individuals education isn’t a priority because either it wasn’t a priority for their parents and/or the importance of was never instilled in them, or immediate survival is the main focus… short-term existence rather than long-terms aspirations.

    I am astounded on a regular basis by friends and family working in the social services systems with juveniles who are met with blank stares when asking these young people what their goals are. Their replies vary from “I ain’t got no goals” to “What you mean? What I wanna do with my life? I dunno” to ” I wanna drive to collect the golf balls off the driving range”. True stories. And said. Because we are not instilling in our young people the need to set goals and then assisting them in attaining them.

    Some personal guilt that I harbour is that I haven’t given back to the community in the manner that I would like in the form of being a mentor or something. And I guess it comes down to selfishness. I work hard, have a young family and my free time is my own. Why should I give of myself to sort out somebody elses mess. And that’s where I’m wrong. And where I think a lot of us fall short. It’s not somebody else’s mess, it’s OUR collective responsibility to each other and indeed to our very own future. When did we as a village stop caring about our children?

  283. “…absolute power corrupts absolutely, and as many people said in history, power is the ultimate drug, the total addiction. Once you have it, it takes great strength of character to let it go, or take actions that may lead you to lose it.”

    Pitts Bay – that’s an entirely true and legitimate point. applied more broadly, particularly to our society where power and access to it has been absolutely color codified for centuries, i can understand why white folk collectively would feel shaken under the circumstances we currently live within. power, if only political, has sat with black folks for a decade and that’s got to be uncomfortable for white folks, if only because of it’s relative practical newness. beyond that, considering the ramifications of what that really means, the symbolic seachange it represents in bermudian history…you’d have to be dead not to be moved by this reality, one way or the other.

    honestly, we’re all so much more similar than we think. same hangups expressed in the same way for essentially the same reasons. the problem is, again, we want to win the argument rather than do the right thing. let’s be clear:

    we know that essentially every person that has used language that white folk are uncomfortable with on the subject of race either directly experienced segregation or was raised by people who did. angry language versus state mandated, life shaping racial inequity. both are unacceptable, but one is obviously so much more damaging than the other.

    think about who’s talking, consider their frames of reference, and see if you can cut ’em some slack after that process. once you do that, and act on that new decision, you’ll be met with less of that noise because people will feel understood and, as hokey as it sounds, safe to share without having to shove. that, again, applies to everyone; black folks of the plp hierarchy included. but, bear in mind: the person with the scarred palm shouldn’t have to be or, just probably won’t be the one to shake the hand.

    frankly, i think that white folks, at this point especially, need to overcompensate – at least in terms of empathy. does that make sense?

  284. LiF – There is a growing segment in Bermuda who feels marginalized and shut out of the share of the spoils (ie, International Business). With home-ownership further out of reach than ever and an overall sense of a lack of opportunity, I think there is probably a growing number of young Bermudians who do not identify with what is going on in Bermuda and are shifting increasingly towards the outskirts of society, forming the underbelly of our society, hence the stark increase in anti-social behaviour and the reason why a number of upcoming high-profile murder trials feature individuals under the age of 18.

    This is a stark warning to us. Where are the doctors, lawyers, healthcare workers, and indeed politicians of the next generation?

    What would Bermuda be like if each of us took responsibility for ONE child (other than our own) and took as much of an interest as possible in ensuring that that individual make positive choices and took advantage of the opportunities presented to them?

  285. @ CO – The thing about that segment is that I don’t think that we can blame IB for its existence, which is exactly what some of our leadership seem intent on doing.

    The way I see it, Bermudian workers can do one of two things: provide services to other Bermudians or provide servies to non-Bermudians. Given how small we are, the first lot consists of a limited number of jobs, and given how little money we have (relative to world) cannot result in great economic wealth. Therefore, if we want to sustain a good standard of living for our 58,000, we need to provide services to non-Bermudians, because that’s where the money is.

    And at present, there are really only two ways to tap ‘others’ – tourism and IB. Everything else is born from these, supporting them.

    So it’s find to say that some Bermudians feel disenfranchised, but the bottom line is there’d be a whole lot more Bermudians with no future without IB. It’s not like there are loads of other industries waiting behind it, ready to swoop in a fill a big IB shaped hole.

    And I think, therefore, that you’re entirely right about mentoring. There are great societies in Bermie, (big bros and sis, mirrors etc) that allow this to happen, and if we can each turn one young Bermudian from ‘I’n even know’ to ‘maybe XXX or YYYY’ then we’re well on the road to improvement.

    And hell, for white Bermudians to go and do this, and change the mind of one young black Bermudian as to the ‘devilishness’ and ‘evil’ reputation that preceedes them – well surely that’ll do more good than any BIG conversation.

  286. elvis – i understand, and apologize. this is one of those points of perceptive difference that i must try harder to appreciate. my sensitivities are different – no more accurate, just different.

    for example, essentially all the statements you’ve classified as demonizing, baseless, racist condemnation of white folks are things that at best i understand completely, at worst i’d never, ever say myself but can see and feel where they come from. it’s harder for me to appreciate why they cause as much discomfort as they do, based on my worldview, but i do make the attempt.

    all that said, it’s still very difficult for me to accept that bermuda’s racial tension exists or was even particularly damaged at all by the past, let’s say, 2 years.

    our racial framework has been palpably disgusting, powerfully so, my whole life. it just seems like folk, black and white, are less repressed about their race related pain now, which is always a progressive step.

    i wonder, though. what sort of discussion on race and it’s reality(not the brilliant de-colorizing campaign panacea offered by p.e. obama) can be held publicly that won’t alienate tens of thousands of whites? what sentences will work? many of the things i’ve said here are just different parsings of the same data from, say, plp folk like marc bean, minister butler, minister cox, even dr. brown.

    this is working surprisingly well here, but the buffer of anonymity helps immeasureably. honestly, how do you think the conversation can work, and who needs to have it to get white folks in the room? and most importantly, who WILL do it?

  287. lif – “you’re entirely right about mentoring. There are great societies in Bermie, (big bros and sis, mirrors etc) that allow this to happen, and if we can each turn one young Bermudian from ‘I’n even know’ to ‘maybe XXX or YYYY’ then we’re well on the road to improvement.

    And hell, for white Bermudians to go and do this, and change the mind of one young black Bermudian as to the ‘devilishness’ and ‘evil’ reputation that preceedes them – well surely that’ll do more good than any BIG conversation.”

    paragraphs of the day. especially if white bermudians reach out to work out a mentoring connection with young black bermudians in particular. that’s where the division lies, in trust-based relationships, so let’s cross it.

  288. I’m with you to some extent Someguy, but I don’t think its hard to disguish between:
    “We must defeat the UBP in the upcoming election”
    and
    “slaying the vile vicious racist dragon”

    in terms of what is acceptable and what might make whites a bit put off. I mean, what is a racist dragon? Aren’t all dragons vile and vicious? Other than that one in Dragonheart. And Shrek.

  289. Pitts Bay,

    Are you saying that Bermuda was better of under the “small group of UBP administrators”? Why is it then, that the majority of Bermudians decided in the last three elections that they were better of under a PLP Government? I don’t see anyone in the current administration having aboslute power. I sit in many PLP meetings and I can assure you there is not one person in any of those meetings who has absolute power, contrary to what some people would want to believe. What you see of the PLP is through the media, what I see of the PLP is face to face.
    I personally don’t see anyone in the PLP who is drunk on power, and it is unfortunate that that perception is out there.

    Uncle Elvis,

    I may seem defensive to you, however I am not, in spite of being attacked on many occasions on this blog. I too am trying to converse, however be assured that my life experience is unlike that of any other person on this blog or anywhere else. I can only share what I know and what I have experienced.

    I will contend that the perception that many people have of the PLP and its leaders is based on what they read on either page 1 or page 4 of the Royal Gazette. Rarely is anything positive written on those pages.

  290. “Are you saying that Bermuda was better of under the “small group of UBP administrators”? ”

    Not sure where you got that from my post !! In fact I have no idea how that even is relevant to my post.

    On the power thing, of course the Premier does not have “absolute power”, but he has a lot and has surrounded himself with people that will ensure that it grows and becomes more entrenched. IMO, most policies are dictated from on high, and if you stick your head above the desk in disagreement, it will get chopped off.

  291. Are you saying that Bermuda was better of under the “small group of UBP administrators”?

    Assuming for a moment that your remark has some validity, have things really changed under the PLP in this regard?

    Much of this thread has been rightfully dedicated to recognising the inequities that exist(ed) within the exclusive frameworks of power and control that permeate(d) our history. However, I haven’t seen a material change in this approach over the last ten years, regardless of promises for increased transparency and consultation.

    In fact, I would argue that there has instead been a centralisation of the decision making process into the hands of fewer and fewer people. Some of Jonathan’s earlier posts on this very matter would tend to support this view (especially in his capacity as an active PLP member, albeit, admittedly, outside of this postulated upper echelon).

    Seeing this consolidation from the outside looking in (with no prospect of gaining entry or a seat at the table unless by choosing to join a party that has said they don’t need my vote) compounded by the insensitive and distasteful abuse of race as a political tool only serves to widen the divide not just between black and white Bermudians but also from the have and have-nots (i.e. the class differences referred to above by CO, et al).

    Open and honest dialogue on the issue of race similarly requires an open an honest government.

  292. Open and honest dialogue on the issue of race similarly requires an open an honest government.

    Think that needs repeating as often as necessary until it happens.

  293. Pitts Bay,

    Maybe I misread this sentence “It is much easier for a small group (i.e. the current PLP administration) who are in positions of power to guide that process with an attitude of inclusivness, than it is for the wide and weird class of persons who are classified as white to form into one cohesive group with a common thread.” If I did, I apologise.

    On the power thing, of course the Premier does not have “absolute power”, but he has a lot and has surrounded himself with people that will ensure that it grows and becomes more entrenched. IMO, most policies are dictated from on high, and if you stick your head above the desk in disagreement, it will get chopped off.

    I think that most leaders surround themselves with people that support them and their ideals. That’s what Barack Obama is doing right now as he appoints his Cabinet. I am certain that if anyone of those appointees publicly disagreed with President-elect Obama, his/her “head will get chopped off”. However, I’m sure Obama,like any other leader would have no problem with that same person disagreeing in a cabinet meeting.

    Wayne Furbert is not out of the UBP today because he disagreed with the way the Party is going. He is out of the UBP today because he took his concerns to the Royal Gazette.

  294. “Wayne Furbert is not out of the UBP today because he disagreed with the way the Party is going. He is out of the UBP today because he took his concerns to the Royal Gazette.”

    Nonsense. He’s out because he chose to leave. The caucus declined to sanction him as reported in The Royal Gazette.

  295. @ Ms. Furbert: “I think that most leaders surround themselves with people that support them and their ideals. That’s what Barack Obama is doing right now as he appoints his Cabinet. I am certain that if anyone of those appointees publicly disagreed with President-elect Obama, his/her “head will get chopped off”

    Erm. Hillary?

    Do you think it’s good that when Dr. Brown’s support staff in teh past have disagreed with him they’ve had their heads chopped off?

  296. LiF – I think any true leader will cut off his/her enemies. I’m sure Jennifer Smith and Alex Scott wish they had taken notes.

  297. Someguy and Ms. Furbert,

    I think it’s wonderful that we’re talking, but I’m having a hard time having a conversation, as you’re not addressing what I’m saying in my posts.
    I’m really trying here.

  298. elvis – as am i. i apologize if i didn’t address the point(s) in your last post effectively, it wasn’t my intention.

    to paraphrase:

    you said that much had been done to demonize whites using baseless racial hatred by the plp, and i shouldn’t minimise that. also, that joining the plp is not the be-all/end-all route to acheive social justice. is that right?

    i said that i disagreed and explained why. also, i made it clear(hopefully)that i respect your perspective and am attempting to understand how you got there more fully.

    before that, i think you asked what do we do next to transform our behaviour. i gave what i hope were a couple practical suggestions(benefit of the doubt for everyone, trust black folks instincts when it comes to race)for all parties to consider.

    if that’s unsatisfactory, i’m sorry. if there’s a specific question you’d like me to answer, i’m eager to hear it.

  299. I was more referring to this bit…

    “One man and a dozen sentences” haven’t kept “tens of thousands of white folks collectively disdainful of the process to achieve social justice and racial equality”.
    “One man”, and several others, “and a dozen sentences” that seem to be designed solely to demonize and condemn whites, as well as a seeming blind eye to racist, baseless verbal and written political attacks by members of the party, have kept “tens of thousands of white folks collectively” from seeing the PLP as a viable choice for their support.
    There’s a big difference between a political party and “the process to achieve social justice and racial equality”.

    If anything, this “one man and a dozen sentences” has given the impression to “tens of thousands of white folks” that the PLP, as it stands now (and not the Party itself, just the current administration), is, in fact, just the opposite of “the process to achieve social justice and racial equality”.

  300. One thing kinda bothers me about the whole Lynne Winfield piece… while recognizing that everybody’s experiences and perceptions are different… How is it that Lynne Winfield, a white woman, seems to be the only person to acknowledge that her scenario is somewhat representative of the makeup of a number of Bermudians.

    I mean…I can’t understand how it is that myself and Lynne Winfield are the only people who know the individuals described in her article. black and white. Now that’s not to say that this is the story for everybody, heavens no.

    But either one or a combination of the following:

    1. Lynne Winfield is micin’
    2. Lynne Winfield and I know the same people… and apparently all the wrong people as it relates to the ‘average’ or ‘typical’ Bermudian families
    3. People are so afraid of being boxed in that they are unwilling or unable to acknowlege and identify the similarities as it relates to the much broader, complex picture.

    I mean… we can all provide exceptions and talk about how our particular familes are so different bla, blah, blah. But can we at least acknowledge that while obviously not an accurate depiction of ALL the blacks, or ALL the whites on the island… that white Bermudians have historically had it easier by virtue of skin colour? I’m not sure that we ever got to that point in the discussion.

    Because I’ll be honest. I spoke to a few friends last evening and between three of us, we couldn’t for the life of us come up with one white person we knew who either didn’t they themselves own, or their family own property… Conversely, the number of black friends we have in that boat diminished drastically.

    I mean… do I just know all the wrong people?

  301. Lost In Flatts,

    I personally don’t know of any support staff whose heads have been chopped of by Dr. Brown. But it would not surprise me, leaders, in whatever organisations you’re talking about need to have the confidence and support of their support staff. Certainly, as the secretary to the President of the BIU, I I constantly disagreed with him and what he did, either I should know that it’s time for me to go, or expect for him to let me go. That’s only common sense.

    Casual Observer, I can assure you that both Jennifer Smith and Alex Scott were leaders who conducted their affairs as any other leader, they surrounded themselves with those people whom they could trust and those that they couldn’t, had to move on. Arthur Hodgson should come to mind.

    I’m sure if Hilary Clinton, or any of the other Republican appointees to Obama’s cabinet, prove to be a thorn in his side, their heads will be “chopped off” as wel.

    Uncle Elvis,

    I think what you really mean is that I’m not giving you the answers you would like to get.

  302. “Because I’ll be honest. I spoke to a few friends last evening and between three of us, we couldn’t for the life of us come up with one white person we knew who either didn’t they themselves own, or their family own property”

    Hey CO,

    I am white/Portuguese and I own no property and neither does my mother, who has been renting for well over a decade. It’s that broad brush you were talking about yesterday.

    Ms. Winfield and her huband come from historically wealthy families and thus their experiences are very different from my families. My family is not the one off, there are plenty of white/portuguese families who are still labor based and struggle on a monthly basis to make ends meet. If yuo don’t believe me then come to a family function of mine and I will introduce you to dozens

  303. Republican? Uh uh, she one of yers… Lol.

    But seriously, the president elect has actually managed to outfit his cabinet with people who have severely disagreed with him at some point or another. In fact, he appears to be purposely making his future presidency a little hard on himself. No mere yes men here. And that measn he will have to do the best job he can, knowing that they will (which he has said he encourages) tell him exactly what needs to be said to him, not what he wants to have said to him.

  304. Ms Furbert –

    Alex Scott: Ewart Brown states his intention to challenge for the leadership position. Alex Scott keeps him on board. Mr Scott gets the ax.

    Ewart Brown: It is rumoured that Randy Horton plans on challenging EB for the leadership position. R Horton is promptly replaced.

    That, to me is leadership. I think EB is a very intelligent, calculating, savvy political animal.

    And yes, that did happen int he case of Arthur Hodgson and rightly so.

  305. 9ps – Thank you for sharing. Again. At the heart of Ms. Winfields case, is not so much whether we identify specifically with the scenarios presented (for example, each one of my [black] grandmothers children received post-secondary education. Half are also property owners). The issue is can we at least agree that there are factors in place that have historically given one group a leg up over the other.

  306. “I mean… we can all provide exceptions and talk about how our particular familes are so different bla, blah, blah. But can we at least acknowledge that while obviously not an accurate depiction of ALL the blacks, or ALL the whites on the island… that white Bermudians have historically had it easier by virtue of skin colour?”

    And who has said otherwise? The point that I made to you – repeatedly – was that, whilst I accept the general premise that whites are typically had an easier time than blacks in Bermuda, I do not accept that the scenario that she used to illustrate her point was accurate insofar as the typical white family is concerned. It overstated, by quite a mark, how well off the average white family is. That’s all.

  307. Casual Observer,

    Ewart Brown did not axe Alex Scott. Ewart Brown was elected by a huge majority at a duly constituted Delegates Conference, after resigning his cabinet position so that he could challenge the leadership. That the right thing to do.

    As far as Randy Horton is concerned, he has publicly stated that he was not challenging for the leadership of the Party. I think the Premier gave his reasons as to why he was removed from the Cabinet. If you want to believe that he was removed because he was going to challenge the leader, I don’t think that there is anything I could do to convince you otherwise. The fact of the matter is that there was no challenge and the opportunity was there. A threat of a challenge is one thing, whether that person would have made a successful challenge is another thing.

    I think that Barack Obama is a “very intelligent, calculating, savvy political animal”. That’s the reason he’s the President elect today.

    Alsys,

    No matter how smart those people that Barack Obama has surrounded himself with, no matter if they have disagreed in the past, if any of them publicly disagree with the President of the United States, they will no longer be inlcuded in his inner circle. That just makes sense to me. I have never sat in a cabinet meeting, under either of the 3 PLP Premiers, but I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that all are not in agreement at all times, but the majority carries. I do sit in other PLP meetings and I can assure you that I don’t always agree with the leader, neither does everyone else at all times, but the majority carries. That how organisations work. The PLP is not different from any other organisation.

  308. Ms. Furbert,

    No, ma’am. That is not what I meant. I believe my point was missed. That may have been my fault.
    But it’s ok. The conversation has moved on and grown well from where I was at.

    Lokes, CO,

    Deceased equine? Suitably flogged. As an objective observer who likes you both, I wanna let you know that you’re on the same page.

    Lokes, you’re right that overstatement does happen and probably did in that case. And you’re absolutely to speak out against it. You know how I hate generalizations.

    CO, you’re right, too. White folks have had advantages. We’ve had a GREAT talk about it in the past, so you know I’m with you on that subject.
    (And, though I hate to admit it, I can’t think of any Bermudian that I know, black or white, that doesn’t at least have family that owns land. I guess that reinforces the Classist vs/ Racist argument.)

    Now let’s get to the meat, babies!

    If I may be allowed to play referee for a sec (of course, this is in no way binding to anyone here), now that we’ve reached a point where we understand that perceptions taint how we see subjects and that there’s no anger here, no attacks, if someone says something that bites, it’s not an intentional bite (At least I think we’re sort of around there), how about someone pick a subject that’s bugging them and discuss. One subject. Focused discussion. Opinions expressed as opinions, facts as facts, never the twain shall meet.

    Just a thought.

  309. Ms Furbert… I mean that the delegates chose EB over AS… not suggesting that EB axed AS. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

  310. CO –

    “Ewart Brown: It is rumoured that Randy Horton plans on challenging EB for the leadership position. R Horton is promptly replaced.

    That, to me is leadership. I think EB is a very intelligent, calculating, savvy political animal.”

    I agree that he’s intelligent, calculating, and politically savvy, but, if Horton was replaced solely because of rumors of a challenge, that is not leadership in my mind. That just tells me that his own political career was more important to him than anything else, and that is a big problem for a whole host of reasons.

  311. Of course Mr. Horton was not replaced soley because of rumors of a challenge. As you can see, they were just rumours. There was no inkling of a challenge at the Delegates Conference which in my mind means that the delegates, and hence the Party, are satisfied with the Leader.

  312. 9ps,

    Now that you’re 26 and obviously a working man, why don’t you change the dynamics of your family. Why don’t you see what you can do about buying a piece of the rock? I don’t know about how the banks are right now, but they’ve been pretty generous in the past with mortgages. You can also go the the Housing Corporation for assistance. Just because your mother doesn’t own property doesn’t mean that you can’t.

    This message is intended only as being helpful.

    LaVerne Furbert

  313. the plp is just as bad as the upb…this has been proven by peoples unspoken behind clodes doors dealings with the party..they r just as crooked as the ubp was….”absolute power …etc”
    The lavern furberts will continue to deny this cause they dont want to do whats nessicary to fix the party from within.
    Time to ban all political parties.
    there is a race and classwar goin on here. and the so called middle n lower middle n lower classes get shitted on the most by rich whites n blacks. And thoese who have degrees n think they r some how better than people who dont have the same letters behind their name.
    They get blocked from various employment opportunities, including government jobs, (even thought they have qualifications n experience in various fields) they get discriminated against, and in many cases this behaviour comes from the government n civil servants, who have gorgotten they r meerly employees and over glorified paper pushers!
    FUCK ALL OF U THAT PULL THIS BULLSHIT ON YA OWN PEOPLE!

  314. the plp has created a new underclass in this country….only a matter of time b4 we the people rise up and take back our country frm the political gangsters….d clock is ticking

  315. Many white people have this perception/attitude that since their ancestors did the crime … their descendants have nothing to do with correcting the wrong. This is probably the best debate/conversation I’ve read on line with regard to this important issue. Now, after over 300 posts… please tell me EXACTLY what black people expect white folks to actually do now. What action should we take to “correct the wrong?” I have never received a satisfactory answer to that question….

  316. Star man….whats happening….Firstly…no 1 black person can speak 4 all. Id like to add my 2 cents to ya question though….

    you all need to educate yourselves with the struggle, of people of color..how do they say..walk a mile in our shoes. Knowledge of what generations have had to deal with…the disconnection from african culture etc. puts us at a good starting point.
    Knowledge like this allows one to gain an idea of what repaairs need to b made on the various levels…social, economic, reconnect with african culture, and reconnecting with african spirituality.
    These various reconnections are nessicary to free us all from the mental bondage of slavery. This educational reconnection is not by anymeans a one way street. Many black people dont realise that our being african has a bigger meaning that meerly being a so called slave, must of the pre slaver history of africa is not taught to black people in general n especially in bermuda. Here we r stuck on slavery. n the negative, but no connection is made to what actually makes us african…africa itself.
    years of ubp rule… no african content in schools = black people thinkin all there was of our past is slavery = no knowledge of self to heal = poor racial atmosphere = political manipulation.
    years of plp rule….no delivery of the great obama hype hope of change…still no african content on education manditorilly ..system wide = no reconnection no knoweledge of true self = political manipulation via race.. look @ last election as proof of this…not a single fuckin issue was discussed…debated…all emtional manipulation of a black populace who has not healed from slavery…hence y de womans comment on goin back to plantation took hold so well.
    The plp fear education black people on africa because it will empower them to the point where they will become independent thinkers and end the racial manniulation, and not be dependent on mere politicians to guide them in life.
    African chiefs and traditional rulers are above politicians.
    Im going to refer back to what pitts bay has said earlier:

    Pitts Bay Says:
    December 10, 2008 at 10:27 pm
    ” n b4 u start trippin again…that dont mean throwing money around…u dont have to ansa that…its ment as food 4 thought.”

    Thanks – although I think if there is excess wealth, it can be applied back to the community. I know my father did that many many times. Sometimes as loans, sometimes as gifts – generally the loans were never re-paid. These were almost exclusively to Black Bermudians. Scholarships and academic assistance is what I personally believe is the best way of assisting people, and this is what I do. C’est la vie – maybe there is more I could do. Let me be convinced!

    Pitts Bay

    His method is good…..this method combined with an historical knowledge of that generations have sufferd can go far in adressing the collection of issues…..u follow me? This method can do a lot to assist black people in this comminity that the black government has turned its backs on for whatever reason.
    to end racism and many other skisims, white peole need to get behind real education al reform as far as teaching correct world history, to the younger generatios. Multicultural education is the only way to end racism! Many have been after the plp to deal with this .. n of course.. nothin gets done…Of couse they will be quick to bring up ashe programme…but the lady was american, n she formed her programm by gettin the material for content from a black bermudian who wanted to deliver his own programm, spent money developing it, but had it stolen away….That kinda of karma wont yeld good long standing results, n this is y the ashe programm is no longer around….anyways i digress
    Whites need to get behind educational reform.
    Whites need to mingle more with the rest of us….if we ya family n u neva come round us, y u suprised u get treated like a stranger?
    Whites need to get more behind positive black people that this black government for whatever reason ignores. But doing this u create hope in the community…u get me?
    There r many black minds here who have healed themselves from slavery, (unfortunatly not many of them r in the PLP) by going back to africa in the physical and spiritual sence…so not all of us have issues with white people. The issues come when the lack of education u have on us comes out in the various negative ways that remind us of what your ancestors have done n how much we as a people have truly lost…u follow?

    Im sure more will come to me….we can continue on this n im sure awakened black minds will have positive things to contribute…in advance to the people who will have something negative to say about my comments u can FUCK RIGHT OFF.. thank u

    In the mean time….Pitts bay….i need some money to start my company. the government dont wanna help me.. they too busy scamming the people, and helping their friends and fellow plp members get houses (lavern furbert) and giving them tax payer dollars on brainless scheems with no business plan (andre curtis) to help real people who need the help…so holla back pitts bay.

  317. “.i need some money to start my company. the government dont wanna help me.. they too busy scamming the people, and helping their friends and fellow plp members get houses (lavern furbert)”

    No need for that kind of attack. Especially with nothing to back it up.
    It brings nothing to the table

  318. freedom of speech….people may know than u do elvis? u know all thats goin on on dis island elvis? U all seeing n all knowing?

  319. people like u elvis seem to forget…our political shitstem has allowed politicians and their friends to royally fuck the taxpayer!!!!! Do i have to list the fuckin examples?
    In most develpoed coundties that dont follow corruption, every single dollar woould ba accountable, and non of the utter bullshit we have seen in momey scams would not be tollerated. Just look at the us govenor who got locked up for selling power. Its the same game here.
    Other there a free press exists that actulally does investigative reporting to expose government wrongdoings, every thing is under microscope…political relationships, investogations on the people that support a party in the public blind loyalist style of lavern furbert…they get investigated to see if they have a specific reason to be so vocal in their support….many of us have been to school n obtained degrees over seas and have spent long years living in these countries, in comparision…these no accountability in bermuda in government…never has been.
    Further more…until starling prevents me from sayin sumpin…my freedom of speech will remain n me nah take back no chat. st8
    N im not attackin pitts bay im nerworkin n asking for his assistance, u need to back de fuck up n chill elvis.

  320. elvis…right now all government contracts r goin to ubp……this is a bribe for keeping quiet on certain things, n if they speak up they r then castigated by government a la bob richards/ col burch…”well u benifiting by havin a contract…so y u complaining?” look at what companies have what conracts…thers a disturbing patten…a familiar pattern…the pattern of the 40 thieves…government giving stuff on a closed access basis….aka corruption
    Richiest nation in the world, international tax haven, nothing for the poor, no free healthcare for poor, no price controls on food, no houses for the poor, the focus is on the middle class, upper middle class, and the eliets. The PLP has failed to deliver the obama change. they have become what they were fighting, they have forgotten the poor people that got them in office….”They have out upbed the ubp”…jullian hall thats corruption.
    Problem in this country is u lot dont wanna be real, n as a result crap is outta control, governmtn dont have a clue of what they r doing, and the people r basically brain dead in gettin the government to be accountable to the people instead of aCcountable to only them selves.
    Just tonight…human rights under government control…legal aid under government control….all corruption.

  321. Government has cut spending on projects, cutting off funding to contractors who were ready to do work n employ bermudians….govermt cutting spending is wa caused the great depression in usa…n here we r follwing in their footsteps n repeating history? This tell u that we r being led y people who know what they r doing?

  322. u need to back de fuck up n chill elvis

    Wow. four posts in response to me calling you on making a baseless attack on someone that’s part of the conversation we’re having and I’m the one who needs to chill.

    And what a response! Full on attack mode.

    Tell you what. You back up your claims about Ms. Furbert in this conversation, with real evidence and not hearsay and supposition, and I’ll “back de fuck up”.
    Until then, I will say again: This is bringing nothing to the table.

    There’s a time and place for ranting and raving and this ain’t it.

    Yer also talking out yer ass about me “forgetting” things. Nothing that you’re saying is news to me. And it has nothing to do with what was being talked about.

    As the saying goes, “Your right to swing your fist stops at my face”. Freedom of speech is one thing. Lashing out and attacking people baselessly is another and, as I said, adds nothing to the conversation.

    so, I’m going to ask you nicely, one member of the conversation to another, to please calm down and join in the conversation. Talk WITH us, not AT us.
    Your current method has been proved, time and again, to be unsuccessful and will do nothing but discredit any good points you may have. I actually agree with you on some points, but your delivery method is too abrasive and unreasonable and belligerent to take seriously.

    Please.

  323. I guess it must have been getting late – conversation clearly took a plunge downhill towards the end there.

    As things were going so well before that, perhaps we can move above personal remarks and towards ideas? Such as:

    1. Every extension to a work permit (when they overturn the 6 year thing, we know it’ll happen) comes with an obligation to perform community service for an average of 1 or 2 hours a week, over the course of a year. An online log is provided, and organisations given access to confirm that it happened.
    2. The PLP sign up to PATI, and move away from shady, un-tendered contracts, and let us know where all the money is being spent. Bottom line is that whether or not they’re being corrupt, people will always suspect them until they as long as the information is being hidden. Logic being, if it was all good, why hide it?
    3. Dr. Brown sits down with Kim Swan at a public place, and the two of them agree not to use deliberately flammable language in their public addresses. (and their parties)
    4. 25% of the budget for foreign consultants (once its been explained exactly who they are and how much they cost) is taken and put directly into hiring more full time and part time police.
    5. Dr. Brown divests some of his ministries to someone else, so that he can focus on being the premier. You either admit that being the minister of Tourism is not a full time job, or you claim Dr. Brown has more than 24 hours in a day.
    6. Start mandatory ‘exit interviews’ for companies moving away from Bermuda, so that we can understand the actual reasons they’re going. If it really is because one of their employees was racially abused or that they feel threatened by the rhetoric, than at least we have it tangibly written down, as evidence to the nay sayers. (conversely, if it just because of other reasons, we also have that).
    7. Have an open, public forum with the editor of the Royal Gazette and Dr. Brown, where the two can sort their damn differences out, so we can stop having biased reporting from the RG, dismissal of the media when it suits and acceptance when it doesn’t from the PLP, and save all that wasteful money being put towards another daily paper to an actual purpose.
    8. Sort out the immigration and customs people. Their attitude really, really, really sucks, and they’re the face of Bermuda on arrival.
    9. Bring in mandatory speed restrictors for all new motorcycles and cars. Hell some of them even save fuel, and you can’t tell me there is a pressing need for a moped in Bermuda to do anything above 50 mph.
    10. Find out what happened with Faith Based Tourism.

    (the last one is a joke)

  324. Due to pressures in real life I’ve been taking a rather hands-off approach to this thread and I have to say I’ve been thoroughly enjoying the discussion, even though I admit I’m still catching up with it (I’ve caught up to about post 230…). What I have read so far has been very interesting, and I would like to thank everyone for their contributions.

    I would like to encourage everyone to continue the discussion with the least amount of personal attacks, reactions and the like as possible. This isn’t a dig at anyone, just trying to rienforce the constructive dialogue that I’ve been reading so far. Every one has contributed some very valid points, although it is necessary to understand that due to our own personal experiences our approach to articulating our perspectives are sometimes not easy for others to understand. All I can say is that if people wish to continue constructive debate try to reflect on the key points and ignore the inevitable chaff that may otherwise detract from ones understanding.

    This time next week I’ll be much more at liberty to be more active.

  325. Son-really, the personal attacks aren’t necessary and i think you’ll find that you are getting your point across without having to deride people you don’t know. A lot of people probably agree with what you are saying. Including myself.

    LiF-to add to your list I would stress again a serious recommitment to education and mentoring. Not so much by our government, but by us as individuals. It is all good for us to throw around ideas and solutions online but unless we are prepared to carry this out into the real world then we are just as culpable. Bermuda is a small place and we might not be able to save the world, but I believe that it is not too late to save each other.

    I think that every company, local and international should be required by government to commit a certain number of weekly hours mentoring… or should ‘adopt a child’ in the school system and be challenged to assist in the child’s education and/or development.

  326. With all due respect to these ideas of forced volunteerism, it is not necessary and undermines the whole idea of volunteerism.

    The corporate sector contributes heavily, with both time and money, in a way that is arguably more productive than many government services. Bermuda has a huge charitable industry funded by corporations which they happily support as a reasonable social tax in exchange for no tax on profits. Their employees time is valuable. Some are willing to give a lot of time for extra-curricular, others prefer to give money instead.

    Bermuda is not wanting for corporate support of local charities and social causes.

  327. The Truth – It’s evident that pouring money into the problems isn’t fixing them. Throwing money at a problem doesn’t make it go away.

  328. See… and I purposely didn’t use the term ‘volunteerism’ because it’s obvious that the concept of volunteerism implies something that is at the whim of the volunteer… I don’t think that we have the luxury anymore to sit back and decide what we want to do, when, and to what extent. Given the choice, most of us do nothing. Are we really serious about fixing a broken Bermuda, or are we all sitting back writing blank cheques and waiting for somebody else to do it. We can either volunteer to succeed or voluntarily fail.

  329. “It’s evident that pouring money into the problems isn’t fixing them. Throwing money at a problem doesn’t make it go away.”

    Talk to your government not the corporate sector. One is results oriented, one is not. And I never said blank cheques. You clearly are uninformed about the extent of corporate charitable support. Bermuda has treated corporations as cash cows for too long. That luxury is leaving to Switzerland if you hadn’t noticed.

    The fact is that the corporate sector donates both time and money in a huge way. Problems will never go away, they’ll always be with us and will always require work. Mandating things is never the answer.

  330. I agree – we have no shortage of nice art exhibitions, pretty old buildings and what not – money isn’t the problem. We need people’s time and effort. If they won’t volunteer, I say we ‘encourage’ them. 😉

    @CO – Would be great to see that in local business too, but I can’t imagine the PLP would ever pass legislation that could enable that.

  331. The Truth – For the love of God, I’m not questioning the financial contributions of the corporate sector. Or their time. What I’m saying is that all the money in the world won’t fix the problems unless we take a more hands on approach… a genuine, real interest in each and every one of our young people.

    That’s it. I’m suggesting that we all ‘Adopt-A-Student’… kinda like adopting a highway. But with people. Got me?

  332. LiF – I’m not putting this all on IB… I did say local companies as well. And I’m not sure why we have to wait for legislation…

  333. Okay so say we do enact some form of legislation to promote mentoring among expats. Would that help as much as a bermudian doing the same thing? I mean, it should be first and foremost us as bermudians responsibility to look out for one another, not shoulder said responsibility of guest workers. But having said that, how does one “force” bermudians to look out for one another in a menaingful way. The average bermudian’s attitude is “it’s not my problem” when it come to this but we expect expats to fix it? We need to work on instilling a deep sense of community into bermudians’ mentality before we try asking others to help out.

  334. The point is that they do volunteer, their time and money. It isn’t just art and buildings either. Who do you think is funding education initiatives? Who is funding sport teams? Who is doing clean ups? Who is working with the Hope academy? Who funds Curon? Who supports the Family Learning Centre? Who offer scholarships, internships? Who runs the career fair? Who?

    Open your eyes and be a little less more appreciative of what is done rather than whine that it’s not enough.

    It’s a hell of a lot. And they ask for nothing in return.

  335. I would not normally respond to Son of obatala, however, because he has made the public statement that the PLP “is helping their friends and fellow plp members get houses (lavern furbert)””. Let me assure all, I, along with my two sons purchased our home before November 9, 1998. We continue to pay the mortgage without any assistance from the Government. That is hogwash that that man has written and I am highly offended.

  336. THE TRUTH – I give up. My point is not that it is not enough. My point is that maybe we need to do change our approach and change the mindset that either it isn’t our problem or that writing cheques will make it go away.

    I am not taking anything away from the hundreds of volunteers both expat and local. I am simply suggesting that we make a concerted effort to all take a vested, collective repsonsibility approach for our community… not just relying on pockets of the community and individuals to do the leg work for us.

  337. Alsys – you are right about the atittude ‘it’s not my problem’… we need to realize that it IS our problem. This is what I am talking about changing…

  338. Ms. Furbert,

    I thank you for your above post. And trust me when I say that my mother and I have been dreaming of finally purchasing our own piece of the Rock. Unfortunately her being a single mom still bringing up my much younger sibling and the current state of housing prices and mortgage rates, chances are becoming less and less likely of acquiring our own home anytime in the near future. Who knows maybe this fincial crisis will carry mixed blessings. Time will tell I guess.

    In regards to the BHC. What services do they offer exactly to first time home buyers? I looked at the web site this morning and couldn’t find too much information on how they can assist. Do they offer financial assistance and what properties/developments are available through the BHC as of today? Thanks again.

  339. 9ps – Did you guys look into the Loughlands developments? I have a number of friends who were able to get on board with loughlands and are now first-time homeowners. It was something that I was in line for as well until something else came along. I believe the 2 bedrooms are around $450k and the 3 bedrooms are around $550k. I cannot remember the name of the lady at BHC that I was dealing with, but I am sure that if you call they can point you in the right direction.

  340. “My point is not that it is not enough.”

    In Bermuda it is never enough. Hence companies shopping around for more welcoming, less costly, less bureaucratic destinations.

  341. 9ps. Give them a call, seriously. i went there myself and was extremely pleasantly surprised to find out how informative and helpful they were.

  342. The truth – yes that’s very helpful. Cherry pick 9 words outs of a dozen or so posts on the issue, ignoring everything yes.

    Seems like the only one doing the whining is you.

    Any actual solutions or ideas to offer up?

  343. I’m sorry, I didn’t realise that you don’t stand by your words.

    “Any actual solutions or ideas to offer up?”

    Sure. Forced volunteerism won’t work. The charitable sector works well, it’s the public sector that is inefficient and wasting tens of millions of dollars a year that could be allocated to private organisations that do a better job.

    Education should be fixed. Yesterday. Nothing will improve with such a poor public school system. So give parents the choice of where to send their kids with vouchers and let the public system go away and private schools to pick up the slack. Shut down the Bermuda College. Turn it into a correspondence/trade school and use the money to pay for every student to go to an accredited college overseas rather than get a worthless Bermuda College diploma.

    Oh, and say thanks for the huge work that is done by the private sector.

  344. The Truth…

    Finally. Solutions. Thanks.

    Again, just suggesting that we as INDIVIDUALS take collective responsibility for our country and for each other. The idea of encouraging/mandating companies to do it was based on the idea that it is more easily regulated or administered than leaving it up to us individually. A pooling of resources/warm bodies to look out for those upcoming youngsters, particularly high risk youths.

  345. Whites need to mingle more with the rest of us… Not if some blacks go out of their way to make us feel uncomfortable. “What are you doing here, this is OUR club/space/etc.”

  346. thats the first house what about the second house, that u was talkin bout on hot 107. im glad ya offended. N U being offended takes nothin away frm my core point…which is the plp is doing exactly wa de ubp has done…help out its members n friends while the people get fucked. N there needs to be a whole lot more secrutiny placed on the financial dealings of plp delegates and plp friends to ensure u lot aint gettin paid off for your so called blind party loyalty.
    none of u lot deserve to b trusted.

  347. star man…im curious thats all u got out of wa i had 2 say to ya question? just cause u may get heckeled by some people means u gonna run away?

  348. Would anyone know where I could find statistical and historical information on the disparity of income in Bermuda? I’m looking for stats on the middle class, ie. how big it is now as compared to say five years ago.

  349. Exactly… I don’t need that shit! I have my adopted Bermudian family, and we get along just great, thank you.

  350. In fact, in one black club I used to patronize, I got hit over the head from behind with a pool cue! While I was out cold they stole my wallet which the cops recovered outside minus my money. Do you think the bartender or anyone in that club would have apologised, empathised, or just asked me how I was? Not one person approached me.

  351. @ Alsys – Used to all be on the government portal, but that seems decidedly down at the moment.

    Typical.

  352. In fact, in one black club I used to occasionally patronize, I got hit over the head from behind with a pool cue! While I was out cold they stole my wallet which the cops recovered outside minus my money. Do you think the bartender or anyone in that club would have apologised, empathised, or just asked me how I was? Not one person approached me.

  353. wa club was that @ starman…..u should have sued the club! in any event, one incident shouldnt mean u walk away frm goin out amgnst black people…not all of us beat white people up when we see them. I asked if there were any other things out of what I listed that you found useful/helpful as far as ya initial question :
    please tell me EXACTLY what black people expect white folks to actually do now. What action should we take to “correct the wrong?” I have never received a satisfactory answer to that question….
    and no elvis, as long as I see my fellow bermudians gettin fucked over I wont b civil, n as long as Im being forced to live as a second class citizen in my own land, I will not b civil. live with it of just ignore my posts i will not b censored this in the internet n the last place of free speech. Bermudians have been far to sheepish and nice thats y a lotta de shit round here frm these politicians has been goin on for so long. So fuck being nice.
    Tha streets aint nice. N if u think im bad, just imagine theres a whole lotta people out deh that r worse, in fact….the mood on the street is people r just down right tired …stressed…and ready to do more then fuck politicians off. So u can put up with my rudeness n venting, at the issues here or u can deal with the masses out deh in de streets who ready to make sumpin pop off…st8.

  354. Alsys & CO,

    I have now contacted BHC in regards to Loughlands. Thanks to you two and Ms. Furbert for the reference. I wish you all a great weekend.

  355. I have always wanted to mentor a younger person in my field of expertise, but I haven’t run into anyone who wanted to be mentored… yet.

    [Jon, as an aside… I’d really appreciate you installing a ‘preview’ button here so we can make corrections if necessary. Most other sites have this option. TNX!]

  356. wa is ya field of expertise? c if u lot wanna do stuff like dis (mentorin etc) den u can organise here n post suck a resource list online some where n people who r lookin can find u! Use this internet tool.

  357. Advertising, Marketing & Production, and I write a killer biz plan. But I was an entrepreneur ’till I lost my biz courtesy of the Minister of Carpetbagging.

  358. Alsys,

    Although the Government portal may be down, you can pick up hard copies containing the information that you are looking for from the Statistics Department. And it is not typical for the website to be down, it’s an exception to the rule.

    9ps,

    Good luck to you in search for a home for your family. I have always believe that where there’s a will, there’s a way, that why my sons and I are home-owners today, not because I’m rich or because the PLP made it happen for me. If we could do it, I know you can do it.

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