Xenophobic Diversions from the Class Struggle

A number of people have already criticised the decision of the Government to restrict access to free daycare to Bermudians only, excluding foreigners who fall within the recently worked out poverty line.

Daycare in our present society is a right and not a priveledge. It falls within that category of rights that all citizens and residents of our island should have access to regardless of price, namely quality education, quality healthcare (with an emphasis on preventative care), quality shelter and basic foodstuffs and clean water. Sadly much of these remain unobtainable today for many of our working poor, despite living in what we are so often told is one of the richest countries in the world. Yes, our worst conditions are hardly as bad as those found in poorer countries, but if cannot be denied that in general in Bermuda in the early 21st Century, access to ‘quality’ education, healthcare, daycare, shelter and even foodstuffs, is largely determined to ones ability to pay.

While it is no doubt the case that many of the working poor in Bermuda are Bermudians (and this is sad in itself that we still have working poor), it cannot be denied that there are guest workers who are also effectively working poor, who face the same problems as working poor Bermudians, but whose problems are compounded by the fact they are foriegners here without access to some of the support networks Bermudians in their conditions have. Furthermore, they are often confronted with stereotypes and racial discrimination. I am thinking here of the poor Portugeuse, the poor Filipinos, the poor sub-continent East Indians and the like. [Most of the anglo-euro-americans do not fall within the working poor…]

Access to daycare should be a right of all residents in Bermuda, regardless of income. Priority should go to those who need it but do not have the means to acheive it, with a phased introduction to of free quality daycare for the working poor irrespective of their nationality. That the number of foriegn workers who may fall into this category is relatively small only makes it even more repulsive that they are singled out for this discrimination – the fact that they are mostly Asian guest workers could even lead to accusations of racial discrimination quite frankly.

These leads to a question of the xenophobic tendencies latent in our society. Most of these do have some basis in very real fears, such as the fact that the foriegn workers are willing to work for lower wages and thus depress the overall wages of the working class, or of a feeling of being a minority in ones own land, or in the case of some guest workers, a reaction to cultural imperialism. But the guest workers are more often similar victims, and the real villains are the capitalists that bring them in to divide and conquer (a classic example is the bringing in of Azorean peasants following emancipation to break the demands of an emancipated Black working class). Xenophobia only benefits the capitalists and divides the workers.

It is necessary to combat the growing trends of xenophobia in our society before we see its evolution into the xenophobic riots seen recently in South Africa, albeit on a smaller scale in our island.

Its not about UBP or PLP. Its about basic human rights and doing what’s right. And providing quality daycare on the basis of need alone and not nationality is an example of that.

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123 thoughts on “Xenophobic Diversions from the Class Struggle

  1. JS – Kindly allow me the opportunity to tweak your remarks slightly …

    Access to Daycare in our present society is a right, however, government funding of daycare is a privilege that should, if offered, ignore the recipients’ individual economic, cultural, religious or national backgrounds providing said persons are in fact legitimate, legal tax paying residents of Bermuda.

    Notwithstanding the foregoing, should government offer this service some sort of limit (number of children?) should be introduced to avoid recipients’ abusing the system wherein the “state” becomes a primary caregiver versus the parent(s).

  2. Any lawyers here know whether excluding non-Bermudians from this is permitted under the Human Rights Act?

  3. seeing as there is no real immigrant class in bda and most non bdans in bda are working or spouses of workers aren’t they taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – if so why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare.

  4. We get swept along in life with words and phrases, to the extent that we stop thinking about what they mean. We talk of “rights and responsibilities” for example.

    Where does this word “right” come from? Privilege I understand, but “right”?

    A “right” suggests that it cannot be taken away and is something that from the moment you are born it becomes yours.

    Since this (or any other Government) can give and take something away, surely this is a privilege? It is at their behest.

  5. While I firmly agree that decent child care is a requirement to raising a well adjusted and functional person, I find it hard to agree that the Bermuda government should pa for foreign children. We kind of have to find a way to take care of our own kids because they are just that, our own, but we are not obligated to financially take care of children who more than likely will not even have a future in Bermuda. I understand that there is a lower class of expatriate workers, who don’t receive the housing allowances and tuition subsidies etc. My answer to this might sound coldhearted, but if a foreign worker is coming here for 3 -5 years to work in a particular industry and cannot afford to take care of their kids during this time, then don’t have them. I find it hard to condone spending X amount of dollars on free day care for non-Bermudians.
    Does anyone know of other countries that subsidize these type of programs for people that have no long term ties to their country?
    Its not about being a xenophobe, its about using resources to focus on our own people, who have no other options and will be here through thick and thin. These foreign kids and their families can leave Bermuda whenever they want.

  6. would you be ok with that person not paying taxes to fund long term projects they won’t themselves benefit from?

    thought not…

  7. Phil

    Not a lawyer, so I am happy to be corrected by those who know about these things.

    The European Convention on Human Rights (which is the base for the UK legislation) does not specifically talk about issues such as this. I can’t determine whether the UK legislation applies to it’s OST’s.

    In the European Convention, the main rights and freedoms are contained in Section I, which consists of Articles 2 to 18. The articles cover fundamental elements such as the “right to freedom of association”, the “right not to be discriminated against on grounds of sex, race, colour, class” etc.

    I originally grasped hold of Art. 14 – Discrimination, thinking that that might provide a way through. But, this prohibition is broad in some ways, and narrow in others. On the one hand, the article protects against discrimination based on any of a wide range of grounds. The article provides a list of such grounds, including sex, race, color, language, religion and several other criteria, and most significantly providing that this list is non-exhaustive.

    On the other hand, however, the article’s scope is limited ONLY to discrimination with respect to rights under the Convention.

    Thus, an applicant must prove discrimination in the enjoyment of a specific right that is guaranteed elsewhere in the Convention (e.g. discrimination based on sex – Article 14 – in the enjoyment of the right to freedom of expression – Article 10).

    An area of the Convention that might be worth exploring, is that Protocol 12 extends this prohibition to cover discrimination in any legal right, even when that legal right is not protected under the Convention, so long as it is provided for in national law. And I think that takes us back to whether BDA is embraced under the UK legislation.

    So, those are my thoughts – for what they are worth!

  8. mambochazbaps

    Understand that point, but taxes are taxes, and you can’t opt in or out. It’s all one melting pot at the end of the day. Sadly!

  9. ” if a foreign worker is coming here for 3 -5 years to work in a particular industry and cannot afford to take care of their kids during this time, then don’t have them

    WHAT???
    Don’t have them?
    That’s the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard ever. Especially since you seem to be applying it to only foreign workers.
    That should also apply to Bermudians. If you can’t afford to have kids, DON”T HAVE THEM!
    How many single mothers are out there who can’t afford one kid, but still can’t manage to use some sort of birth control and end up with 2, 3, even 5 kids all from different fathers, and then complain that they can’t afford to look after them.
    UMM, hello???
    I’m all for taxes helping out with daycare and assisting with the support of single mothers etc etc.
    But as Vanz says, there should be some assistance to the foreign workers too, they are after all paying taxes.
    Likewise, I don’t feel that my tax dollar should be going to support some girl who didn’t have enough common sense to stop having babies she couldn’t afford.

  10. “Understand that point, but taxes are taxes, and you can’t opt in or out. It’s all one melting pot at the end of the day. Sadly!”

    Not sadly. If you pay taxes you’re entitled to government services. Should we decline foreigners health care as well?

  11. It is my understanding that foreign workers coming to Bermuda with their families must show that they are able to care for them financially. That is why many, if not all, of the workers in lower paying jobs are here without their families.

  12. Certain, happens to the best of us 🙂

    We allow foreigners into the public schooling… what’s so different about day care. If this was set up the way PLP originally talked about it (as in Government Day Care Centres) then this really would be a non-issue.

  13. How about a qualification period for foreigners? You have to fulfill a residency requirement of say 6 months before you can avail yourself of the benefit.

    Sadly I really thought when the PLP said all they meant all instead of the means based system that is currently being touted.

  14. “Not sadly. If you pay taxes you’re entitled to government services. Should we decline foreigners health care as well?”

    Heh – just for the record, I ain’t arguing with you, just pointing out what happens in reality. You pay your taxes – some idiot decides to spend them in ways that you might not approve of. Period.

  15. We allow foreigners into the public schooling … what’s so different about day care.

    … you beat me to it Alsys.

    I don’t feel that my tax dollar should be going to support some girl who didn’t have enough common sense to stop having babies she couldn’t afford.

    … Agreed.

  16. That’s all well and good Laverne, but what happens when a foreign worker gets pregnant, and has a child, and can’t afford the daycare?
    Should we have a law in place that states any foreign worker who’s combined salary is less than $70k a year is not allowed to have children, or they will lose their permits?

  17. at least one minister has stated that special needs education should only be reserved for Bermudians.

    Charming.

  18. Certain,

    The reality is that if a female foreign worker gets pregnant and has the child unless the baby daddy is Bermudian and willing to state before immigration his intent to marry her (remember this is after the child is born) she will likely not have her permit renewed. I have seen it happen a couple of times now.

  19. I also agree that if Bermudians cant afford them then they shouldnt have them. The difference is that we have to take care of our own people regardless if we feel they are responsible or irresponsible. We are not required to provide for other nationalities.

  20. I dont understand some of you are so supportive of anything that is foreign related and that provides benefits for foreigners.

    And to the poster who insinuated they should have to pay taxes into a system if they wont benefit longterm, yes they should because they are benefiting now from being here.

  21. Shawn – I would refer you to page 8 of yesterdays RG to get an idea of the benefits of collective altruism.

    Your narrow minded xenophobia could make a lovely epitaph for Bermuda.

  22. Shawn C.,

    Don’t forget that the children of foreign workers can avail themselves of our free public school system (as someone else already stated) … what’s the difference between that and daycare?

    Its a social benefit initiative and it will attact those who want to see universal application … I have no problem with extending it to foreigners (my residency requirement statement above was based on how Canada applies its universal healthcare system).

  23. whatever mambo. i have read your posting and rants and choose to not participate in a dialogue with you.

    i am in no way a xenophobe. however i have no problem putting the needs of bermudians first in our own country.

  24. rants?

    I hardly think so. Your last two statements make a delightful juxtaposition.

    whatever sweetie, I do urge you to dig out yesterdays paper to look to see how the long term benefits of Bermuda are brightened when people do the right thing…

  25. in canada there are some services that are not available to non citizens and i’m sure it’s the same in most countries – especially the US – so i don’t understand why bdas policy should be any different –

    ps mambo is the bomb

  26. I’m certainly not disputing putting Bermudians first.
    But if it wasn’t for a lot of foreign workers, Bermudians wouldn’t have a lot of things.
    It’s the executive foreign worker that makes it so a Bermudian can add a room to their house, call it an apartment, keep the assesment number for a second car and earn $2000 in rent a month.
    It’s the labour foreigner that’s doing the potwashing, waitering, cleaning jobs for lower pay, keeping businesses running, because your average Bermudian won’t do those jobs.

    The foreign worker still pays tax, which is paying for daycare for a single Bermudian mother.
    They should receive some benefits.
    They’re not second class citizens.

  27. Van,

    What services are those? I spent four years in Ontario while attending University. I am just curious as to what these services might be on a comparitive basis.

  28. Vanz, I’m confused.

    “vanz Says:
    July 24, 2008 at 7:31 pm
    seeing as there is no real immigrant class in bda and most non bdans in bda are working or spouses of workers aren’t they taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – if so why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare”

    Should they or shouldn’t they?

  29. What services are those? I spent four years in Ontario while attending University. I am just curious as to what these services might be on a comparative basis.

    healthcare for one – landed immigrants receive healthcare but often people just on work permits don’t

  30. Not true,
    I received basic health care while i was on a work permit there.
    I did however have to pay UI, which i was ineligible to collect on.

  31. “Often” or always Vanz.

    I know I wasn’t an immigrant, but a student, and when I broke my arm and had a cast on for four months I never had to pay a dime to the hospital/doctors.

  32. okay mambo and truth (cool names dudes) – u win – whites are cool blks are bad – foreigners are right bdans are wrong – there – do u like me now – it’ll mean a lot to me

  33. Jonny,

    Why do you hold such double standards for Vanz? He calls whites derogatory and racial names all day, and then we are called out for a personal attack for calling his actions “ignorant.” Seems a little strange to me.

  34. “okay mambo and truth (cool names dudes) – u win – whites are cool blks are bad -foreigners are right bdans are wrong – there – do u like me now – it’ll mean a lot to me”

    Vanz,

    Point to the post where any of this was said.

  35. where u on a work permit? did u have coverage through your school fees as i did when i was in university? work permits do not guarantee healthcare in ontario at least –

  36. It is all in your f*ucked up and twisted mind frame.

    So it is of your belief that all whites should never criticise a black person for some of their actions?

  37. “Often” or aways Vanz?

    As I mentione I was a student and therefore was not a work permit. read the whole posts instead of cherry picking.

    Is it “often” or always the case?

  38. doesn’t every country say “americans first, cdns first, brits first – is the fact that bda has a large “work permit” class made it bad to say bda first – that’s crazy

  39. as a black person who is jewish, a foreigner but married to a Bermudian where do I stand on the Vanz scale of irrational hatred?

  40. “vanz Says:
    July 24, 2008 at 7:31 pm
    seeing as there is no real immigrant class in bda and most non bdans in bda are working or spouses of workers aren’t they taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – if so why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare”

    So your above statement posted yesterday states that you believe that if foreign workers who fallin that income bracket should be able to qualify for free daycare? But then it seems you recognized that some opposition (aka. crackers by your standard)agreed with the same point. All of a sudden you switched your tune, why is that? Could you not imagine having the same views as someone that doesn’t look like you. You are one sick individual.

  41. “As I mentione I was a student and therefore was not a work permit.”

    il take it slow – the discussion is about foriegners and govt, services – most foriegners in bda are there on work permits or connected to someone on a work permit – i commented that in canada having a work permit does not guarantee health care – whats’ not clear?

    Is it “often” or always the case?
    this makes no sense – it’s some bizzare excuse to start an argument – but come on girlfriend u don’t need an excuse w/ me

  42. Is it “often” or always the case in Canada? Need to know the true facts in order to compare. Please advise. Thanks.

  43. You stated it was “often the case.” in Canada. It is a simpel question of clairification.

    And I am not your f*cking girlfriend

  44. Could you not imagine having the same views as someone that doesn’t look like you. You are one sick individual.

    wha… – pls explain –

    32n64w said:

    Notwithstanding the foregoing, should government offer this service some sort of limit (number of children?) should be introduced to avoid recipients’ abusing the system wherein the “state” becomes a primary caregiver versus the parent(s).

    i replied,

    seeing as there is no real immigrant class in bda and most non bdans in bda are working or spouses of workers aren’t they taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – if so why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare”

    where is the racism in that

    ps mambo – i don’t hate u – i don’t know u – i do hate racist white bdans though

  45. “whites are cool blks are bad – foreigners are right bdans are wrong”

    Go back to 3rd grade comprehension class if that’s what you take from those who call out your racism.

  46. that didn’t stop you trying to mooch money off me at the screening of your last oeuvre.

    love your work.

  47. Because you are trying to say Canada does the same thing (exclude foreigners from certain governmental services), but you stated it is “often the case.” The daycare issue down here is “always the case,” meaning that no foreign worker, despite their financial situation, can benefit from a service that a Govt. provides.

    This is the same Govt. into which they pay taxes. I believe that the foreign workers who fall into this low income bracket should be able to reap the benefits. All others should be made to pay like the Bermudian households that are above that income bracket.

    So your argument is null and void if it is only “often the case” in Canada in regards to health care.

  48. “ps mambo – i don’t hate u – i don’t know u – i do hate racist white bdans though”

    What makes a white Bermudian racist Vanz? Is it the ones that don’t agree with every action that the PLP or its leaders carry out? Explain to me what in your mind constitutes a raicst white Bermudian? Do I fall into that category of yours?

  49. “Could you not imagine having the same views as someone that doesn’t look like you. You are one sick individual.

    wha… – pls explain -”

    Post #3. This states the belief that you believe that foreign workers who fall into the lower income bracket should be offered the free day care, hence your “tweak” comment. Then not too long after you are saying we shouldn’t have to pay for foreigners kids at all and proceed to use examples of other countries who do the same thing.

    So exactly where do you stand on this uissue?

  50. my mistake foriegn are eligible for ohip:

    You are eligible for Ontario Health Insurance if:

    * you are a foreign worker who holds a valid work permit or employment authorization which names a Canadian employer situated in Ontario and your prospective occupation and is valid for at least six months

    * you are the spouse, same sex partner, or dependent child (under 19 years of age) of a foreign clergy member or eligible foreign worker who is to be employed in Ontario for a period of at least three consecutive years

  51. Then not too long after you are saying we shouldn’t have to pay for foreigners kids at all and proceed to use examples of other countries who do the same thing.

    again – where did i say this, we shouldn’t have to pay for foreigners kids

  52. vanz Says:
    July 24, 2008 at 7:31 pm
    seeing as there is no real immigrant class in bda and most non bdans in bda are working or spouses of workers aren’t they taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – if so why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare.

  53. so u got this:
    we shouldn’t have to pay for foreigners kids at all

    from this:
    (if)they are taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – …why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare.

    dude – stop being such a *white boy

    *literally meaning white and male – not in a bad way

  54. If someone said the following how would you react?

    “nigga – stop being such a *black boy

    *literally meaning black and male – not in a bad way”

    You are a racist through and through.

  55. or if someone said – Vanz, your films are lazy derivative cliches and that ‘you have the talent and dignity of a hatstand’

    literally meaning not in a bad way.

  56. I think the difference in the children of foreign workers going to public school and the government paying for child care for them is because there is only 1 governemnt child care facility (Happy Valley). The others are all private facilities. The government would not pay for the child of a foreign worker to go to private school, so to me it’s one in the same.

    I do believe that in most countries (except for Cuba) the citizens benefit from somethings that visitors and/or guest workers dont. Look at the big debate going on in America right now regarding illegal alients and health care.

  57. “The government would not pay for the child of a foreign worker to go to private school, so to me it’s one in the same.”

    The Government wouldn’t pay for the child of a Bermudian worker to go to private school either. So it’s not the same.

  58. “Jonny,

    Why do you hold such double standards for Vanz? He calls whites derogatory and racial names all day, and then we are called out for a personal attack for calling his actions “ignorant.” Seems a little strange to me.”

    To be honest 9Ps, when I clicked on it I had not read the whole thread; I was mysing.

    I think it is better for posters to avoid falling into traps and stay focused on the central arguments and don’t get distracted by diversionary tactics.

  59. “dude – stop being such a *white boy”

    what in this sentence is as historically destructive as the word nigger?

    did u get “excited” when u typed “nigger”?

  60. Vanz,

    What makes you think that all white Bermudians, who do not agree with all your pov or the PLP’s, are racist? Is it the simple fact that we disagree with certain actions and we are of different skin color to you? Please don’t pull that histoical bullsh*t either. I am well below thirty years old.

    Also, that word in pst #69 is a nasty and destructive word. But I have seen you use it many times over. Why would you use a word that yourself has deemed to be “historically destructive” towards black people?

  61. “did u get “excited” when u typed “nigger”?”

    Is that what you think about white Bermudians? Do you really think that we are all inherently racist Vanz? Have you ever tried to befriend a white Bermudian, or has your narrow perception automatically lead you to ASSUME that he/she is a racist?

  62. I am well below thirty years old.

    so ur allowed to use the word nigger cuz ur not 30 – nice

    “Is that what you think about white Bermudians? Do you really think that we are all inherently racist Vanz?”

    again – where exactly did i say that?

    starling’s a white bdan – i don’t think he’s racist, nor is zane desilva, or dr. barbara ball – so i don’t get what ur saying

  63. “I am well below thirty years old.

    so ur allowed to use the word nigger cuz ur not 30 – nice”

    YOU BETTER SHOW ME WHERE I EVER USED THAT WORD!!!!!

  64. “starling’s a white bdan – i don’t think he’s racist, nor is zane desilva, or dr. barbara ball – so i don’t get what ur saying”

    so any white Bermudian that doesn’t support the PLP is automayically racist?

    And again you better show me where I ever used that word or I expect an apology for trying to spin my words to incinuate that I do or even support it.

  65. Your usual argument is that “historically white Bermudians are racist.” Here is my exact quote from that post “Please don’t pull that histoical bullsh*t either. I am well below thirty years old.”

    You are one sick individual to try and spin words to claim I have the right to use that derogatory, which I believe should be banned for use from all persons, including Black people.

    I expect an apology.

  66. “Look at the big debate going on in America right now regarding illegal alients and health care.”

    Illegal

    As in… not supposed to be there, and certainly not paying taxes.

  67. Vanz,

    You’re an asshole. Plain and simple. I am done even trying to converse with yuo on any level now. You cherry pick, never answer the real questions and make unbelieveable accusations towards people that don’t agree with your points of view. I will not accept being called a racist by someone such as yourself or anyone for that matter. But coming from an idiot like you makes it even worse I truly hope that you do not represent the PLP’s thoughts and views. If so we are all fucked on this Rock. So sorry Jonny, but fuck you Vance.

  68. Actually… ya know what? The more I think about it, the more comparing expats to “illegal alients” is probably a very telling if inadvertent glimpse of how you really see us.

    For the record, I firmly support universal healthcare regardless of status as a basic human right, and childcare isn’t far behind that… though I haven’t made up my mind whether that should be universal as well, or a benefit to anyone who is effectively eligible to pay taxes… so an illegal would miss out on that.

  69. “You’re an asshole. Plain and simple. I am done even trying to converse with yuo on any level now…”

    as usual – these sort of rants have more to say about the ranter than the rantee – dude u don’t know me – probably never will – we don’t live in the same country – probably never will – we don’t move in the same circles – probably never will – so if u are going bananas – it’s a comment on some pre existing racial anxiety that ur dealing with – on a basic level – i feel for u – but it’s nothing to do with me.

    here – let me say it slowly and nicley – u live in a country where the white population has always voted overwhelmingy against the party that was formed to fight for equal rights, where the white press is unapologetically racists, and where white “pundits” like dunelavy, limey etc who have been in bda for less than a generation think it’s their right to call our elected leaders names like mugabe and amin.

    so pls – don’t talk to me – talk toy ur boyz

  70. Vanz – I agree, a psychotherapist would have a field day with the badly plagiarized illiterate rants on Str8nochsr.bm or whatever, I mean have you ever seen that site? Jeez….

  71. wait…

    “we don’t live in the same country – probably never will”

    “call our elected leaders names”

    now i’m confused….

    who called Stephen Harper Mugabe or Amin?

  72. I believe I recall someone calling a pudgy underwriter “Hitler” and “racist” in a spittleflecked rant about the weather or traffic.

    Of course as a jew I don’t find that offensive at all….

  73. Chapman – I assume its your ignorance rather than barely concealed antisemitism that leads you to act the way you do. If I hadn’t spent half an hour in your company (while you tried to mooch a load of cash off me for your next “project”) I would never believe that you’re older than 11.

  74. kaboom!!!
    (still the bomb)

    while you tried to mooch a load of cash off me for your next “project”

    i only ever ask john swan for cash

  75. “where white “pundits” like dunelavy, limey etc who have been in bda for less than a generation think it’s their right to call our elected leaders names like mugabe and amin.”

    Yet we have a black “bermudian” who wasn’t born here and doesn’t live here telling us about the ‘real’ Bermuda…

    wowzers, he must be da real bomb!

  76. but..
    But don’t you and Laverne say that we should have respect for the leaders of our cuntry?
    so… how come as a foreigner to Canada, you’re allowed to call Stephen Harper, Hitler?

  77. certain,

    he was born there (in cda.) and currently lives there with his family – i’m sure he has some sort of status by now.

  78. But I was born here, although my parents weren’t…
    therefore I’m a one generation Bermudian
    and to some, not really considered a real Bermudian (insinuated by Vanz’s posts)
    and therefore not allowed to make comments about our leaders.
    what makes vanz’s situation any different?

    (for the record, I am Bermudian, and until I hand in my Bda passport, I will remain Bermudian)

  79. ignornt – does that mean Vance has been there less than one generation and yet he’s dropping his truth bombz on those dozy Cannucks?

    hmmmm – does that make him a gigantic dull witted hypocrite as well as a bigot?

  80. Jonathan,

    I know that you intention for this blog was admirable, and I applaud you for that, however, the racial divide in Bermuda, whether it is Vanz’s postings or any of the others who have posted, does not allow for constructive debate,

    As I see it, and I’m willing to take the flak for it, the posters from Bermuda Sucks, who really think that Bermuda really sucks, have invaded your space, albeit under different pseudonuyms, and hence we have what we see above this posts,

    All I will say at this point in time is good luck to you Jonathan in trying to have meaningful debate on the many issues that affect our island home I’ve lived several years longer than you, so I’m not surprised at what I read from these people who choose to hide behind anonymity. I was once referred to as “Golliwog” from a former supervisor at the Bank of Bermuda, and I know he used that term lovingly.

    Maybe this is your lesson to learn. I’ve learned mine.

  81. “the racial divide in Bermuda, whether it is Vanz’s postings or any of the others who have posted, does not allow for constructive debate,”

    Your son doesn’t allow for constructive debate. This site was moving along fine until he flipped his lid yet again and began another of his endless tirades.

    Many people are looking for constructive debate but your son is destroying any possibility of that with his racism.

  82. “Your son doesn’t allow for constructive debate.”

    u know it’s delusional to think that i am somehow responsible for the racial divide that plays out on this or any of the bdan blogs – i mean – do u know bdan history – do u know why blk ubpers are called sell outs and why most blk bdnas have a simmering dislike for many white bdans –

    here’s my 1st post on this topic:

    vanz Says:
    July 24, 2008 at 7:31 pm

    seeing as there is no real immigrant class in bda and most non bdans in bda are working or spouses of workers aren’t they taxed in order to pay twd healthcare – if so why not tweak it to cover for those who need daycare.

    i invite u to look at the responses to see when and who derailed the topic – here’s the last post:

    “ignrnt Says:
    July 25, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    i think so! gigantic in reference to his weight or the sheer size of his stupidity?”

    but it’s all me right

  83. wow, i don’t even know what to say
    i’m soooo confused
    is ignrnt vanz?
    is vanz vanz?
    what a mess……
    i’m going to zim
    at least things make sense there

  84. i’m going to zim
    at least things make sense there

    they already had their race war:

    Southern Rhodesia became a self-governing British colony in October 1923, Britain consolidated the two colonies of Rhodesia with Nyasaland. Growing African nationalism and general dissent, particularly in Nyasaland, admonished Britain to dissolve the Union in 1963, forming three colonies. The white-minority government declared itself a “republic” in 1970. The Smith administration declared itself a republic in 1970 which was recognised only by South Africa, then governed by its apartheid administration. The guerrilla fighting against Smith’s UDI government intensified. As a result, the Smith government opened negotiations with the leaders of the Patriotic Fronts—Zimbabwe African National Union (ZANU) and the Zimbabwe African People’s Union (ZAPU). ZANU was led by Robert Mugabe and ZAPU was led by Joshua Nkomo.

    In March 1978, with his regime near the brink of collapse, Smith signed an accord with three black leaders, led by Bishop Abel Muzorewa, who offered safeguards for white civilians.

  85. Zimbabwe (pronounced /zɪmˈbɑːbweɪ/), officially the Republic of Zimbabwe, and formerly Southern Rhodesia, the Republic of Rhodesia and Zimbabwe Rhodesia, is a landlocked country in the southern part of the continent of Africa, between the Zambezi and Limpopo rivers. It is bordered by South Africa to the south, Botswana to the southwest, Zambia to the northwest, and Mozambique to the east. The official language of Zimbabwe is English. However, the majority of the population speaks Shona, which is the native language of the Shona people, a Bantu Language; the other native language of Zimbabwe being Sindebele, which is spoken by the Matabele people.

  86. Ms. Furbert,

    You criticise us? When your son is throwing around allegations of racism towards anyone that is not of agreement with his points of view. And you say that it is us that won’t debate. Read your son’s posts and see who isn’t ready for a mature debate. You two are unbelieveable sometimes.

    I don’t think BDA sucks as it is my home and has been my family’s home for many generations now. I think people like your nasty son sucks for bermuda. It is people like him that help maintain the racial divide in this island. You must be so proud of raising such a tolerant individual such as him.

  87. “It is people like him that help maintain the racial divide in this island.”

    if u think that I or any blk bdan is the cause of the racial divide in bda then u still don’t get it – ur as dim as when dunkley said that growing up he didn’t know that racism existed in bda – ur mistaking blks reaction t racism as racism – makes no sense

  88. I didn’t say cause. I said you maintain it you asshole. Stop twisting peoples words around and speak the truth for once. And just because you run around in a circle full of hate (re: most blk bdians dislike white bdians) doesn’t mean that you speak for the majority.

    I still expect an apology for your outlandish claims against me yesterday.

  89. “i’ll just sit back and wait for the race war to start – just kiddin’”

    This is the type of talk that shows how you are seeking to maintain the divide. You are sick Vanz, absoulutely sick. You would love to see that happen here wouldn’t you. You would love to sit up there in the safety of Toronto and watch Bermuda go into a race war. That is why you are no good for BDA.

  90. what i said:
    most blk bdnas have a simmering dislike for many white bdans –

    what u said i said:
    most blk bdians dislike white bdians

    see the difference

  91. Vanz – Stop sock puppeting. It discredits anything serious you have to say.

    again – wow – these blogs mean a lot to u byes huh – it’s like the real world huh

  92. these blogs mean a lot to u byes huh

    They must mean a lot to you too because you spend as much time on them as anybody else.

    The blogs are a place to start, as you yourself said in the More Labour Blunders thread:

    we “kinda” argue on these blogs about real issues – it wasn’t long ago that a blk bdan and white bdn could go through life on a 21 mile island and never have a meaningful conversation with each other (real talk) for those who get me – i guess these bloodless blogs are a start to a different bda – where the white bdn “interacts” although from behind vein with blk bdans – we’ve come a long way baby – maybe in 50 years we can use the same untertaker

  93. Ms Furbert…

    “Jonathan

    I know that you intention for this blog was admirable, and I applaud you for that, however, the racial divide in Bermuda, whether it is Vanz’s postings or any of the others who have posted, does not allow for constructive debate”.

    I suspect that Jonathan is one of the more admirable guys around here and that he started this blog with honourable intentions. Possible he didn’t ‘expect’ the explosion, but he’s a big boy and can look after himself. Constructive debate really is rarely possible (sadly) because of the polarisation of views which tend to be at the extremes of society here, with little or no chance of a meeting of the minds so to speak. Shame – because society and it’s individuals are the looser at the end of the day as a result.

    “As I see it, and I’m willing to take the flak for it, the posters from Bermuda Sucks, who really think that Bermuda really sucks, have invaded your space, albeit under different pseudonuyms, and hence we have what we see above this posts”

    No flak Ms Furbert as in part, you may well be right. But as I (and others) have asked you before, please don’t tar everyone with the same brush. It’s like suggesting every post on the PLP blog that doesn’t support the party line, is a stray UBP supporter rather than a concerned PLP supporter. Silly. Your debate with Aslys, for example, was I though reasonably genuine.

    “All I will say at this point in time is good luck to you Jonathan in trying to have meaningful debate on the many issues that affect our island home I’ve lived several years longer than you, so I’m not surprised at what I read from these people who choose to hide behind anonymity. I was once referred to as “Golliwog” from a former supervisor at the Bank of Bermuda, and I know he used that term lovingly”.

    Yep – crass indeed disgusting remark – have to agree with you there Ms Furbert. In the UK,that guy goes “out the door” and we take the employment breach cost on the chin. No excuses. Mind you, not sure how comfortable you would be with the black guy who keeps calling me “whitey”…but “heh” I can take that!

  94. “Yep – crass indeed disgusting remark – have to agree with you there Ms Furbert. In the UK,that guy goes “out the door” and we take the employment breach cost on the chin. No excuses. Mind you, not sure how comfortable you would be with the black guy who keeps calling me “whitey”…but “heh” I can take that!”

    the difference is that whitey is a reaction to phrases like golliwog – golliwog is the original sin

  95. Vanz

    Go lie down….please! I thought Jonathan was a friend of yours. You are slowly but surely f…..g this thing up.

    Appreciate you won’t be able to see that – less still agree – but there you have it.

  96. Go lie down….please! I thought Jonathan was a friend of yours. You are slowly but surely f…..g this thing up.

    Appreciate you won’t be able to see that – less still agree – but there you have it.

    again – these blogs seem to be very important to u – why? i do respect what j is trying to do w/ the blog – but the sad truth is that its mostly only “u byes” who are on the sites – the average bdan is sadly unaware on uninterested in fighting real battles online – they do it in public

    but if it means that much to you – go ‘head

  97. Vanz

    Important? Nah – not really. But to answer your question, it actually goes back to what Ms Furbert was saying…

    “I know that you intention for this blog was admirable, and I applaud you for that, however, the racial divide in Bermuda, whether it is Vanz’s postings or any of the others who have posted, does not allow for constructive debate”.

    She is right.

  98. “Yep – crass indeed disgusting remark – have to agree with you there Ms Furbert. In the UK,that guy goes “out the door” and we take the employment breach cost on the chin. No excuses.”

    There would be no employment breach cost. Dismissal with cause would be justified here.

    And if you don’t want to think the employer is being altruistic think about the cost of the Employment Practices lawsuit that would arise when the employer was sued for “that guy’s” behavior.

    “the difference is that whitey is a reaction to phrases like golliwog – golliwog is the original sin”

    No doubt golliwog is a sin. But Mike didn’t say, or even imply, that the term “whitey” was a response to anything. He simply referenced the guy that continually called him whitey. Not the same thing at all.

  99. Hi Blankman…

    As an ex-HR Director, I totally agree with your analysis.

    I guess I added too much info. All I really set out to say was “we wouldn’t put up with it”. I should learn from the old adage, “why use two words where one will do”.

  100. “I know that you intention for this blog was admirable, and I applaud you for that, however, the racial divide in Bermuda, whether it is Vanz’s postings or any of the others who have posted, does not allow for constructive debate”.

    She is right.

    ==========

    No doubt. But there are those that actually want to have a constructive debate and those that don’t. And there are those that seem to feel that a constructive debate consists of a monologue whereby the other side is told how horrible they and their ancestors are. You won’t have a constructive debate, or any sort of debate, if all one side wants to do is berate the other about past behavior. All that will accomplish is to have people dig in their heels.

  101. Many of your are missing the point. Government services provided in Canada are irrelevant. Taxes paid by foreigners in Bermuda is irrelevant.

    What is relevant is that in other countries, like Canada, foreigners entering legally are officially welcomed into society as full and equal participants – not ostracized, shunned, and organized into a distinct class of people. In countries like Canada, the only thing that is relevant is your residency status. If you have the right to reside, you have full access to programs and services.

    I’m not suggesting that there are not a few limitations. Having a Canadian passport entitles me to consular services, but a foreigner on a work permit will not be eligible. Most services are determined by residence. For example, you generally need to be resident in a province for six months before health coverage is extended. This limitation has nothing to do with whether or not you carry a Canadian passport. If I return to Canada from Bermuda, I will not be eligible for free health care until I have been resident for six months, even though I am a Canadian citizen.

    Bermuda would be a much better place if foreigners were accepted into society like any other resident. The only limitation should be the recognition that the only reason the foreigner is here is to provide labour. Once the job is finished, the foreigner should leave.

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